The concurrency and threading in Go just feels like magic compared to every other language. I'm a goroutine addict and I refuse to be rehabilitated.
Just from observations over the years, I don't think there's any other language quite like this, in terms of how things can end up happening in any thread.
Supposedly WhatsApp scaled to serving over 1 billion users with Erlang and BEAM.
RabbitMQ, used by Reddit, uses Erlang and BEAM.
Discord uses Elixer and BEAM.
I just traveled down the BEAM rabbit hole. Fascinating story. The Ericsson Computer Science Laboratory cranked out some amazing products in the early 1990's.
Their goal was five nines of reliability for Ericsson telephone switches.
According to Joe Armstrong (an interesting fellow from Ericsson), the AXD301 ATM switch achieved nine nines over a nine-month period using Erlang and BEAM in 2002. That calculates out to 24 milliseconds of downtime.
BEAM+OTP is a masterclass in using concurrency to achieve fault tolerance. But Go achieves its "magic" by feeling like the lingua francas of programming, C and C++. Go doesn't make the developer learn too many new concepts. The runtime is self enclosed in the final binary. This commitment to the familiar programming patterns also means it allows for concurrency anti-patterns like shared memory which for Erlang+OTP's design principles is verboten.
Slightly irrelevant but that's a part of my issue with Go. I personally feel the chances are slim that "familiar programming concepts" (i.e. as taught by most intro CS courses) are optimal by themselves. And I know it's an old thing, but the fact that Go was once adamantly against generics...
I agree with everything you're saying. I think it comes down to design philosophy. Erlang's ecosystem is well tuned for building fault tolerant systems and features concurrency heavily to solve for that. Go is for general purpose programming in big organizations with massive variance in developer experience that has concurrency as a first class concept for the ability to scale (among other things).
Of course, in some sense fault tolerance and scaling are two sides of the same coin. They're both measures of availability. They're just different approaches to that.
What Go achieves that Erlang doesn't is the ability to "pick up and play". What Erlang achieves that Go doesn't is a pathological commitment to the system whole never going down.
The Go team as a whole was not adamantly against generics though, as I recall. Rather, they were against implementations that would have bad overall implications for the language (especially its complexity, both in usage and in implementation).
Once a sufficiently good proposal was made, generics were adopted.
> I personally feel the chances are slim that "familiar programming concepts" (i.e. as taught by most intro CS courses) are optimal by themselves.
On the other hand, Erlang has been out for ages and has largely failed to attract much adoption, so it doesn’t seem like the market finds it to be “optimal” either. Not that popularity is everything, but over time a language better languages should increase their market share, especially if your language got its start during an era where the competition was C and C++ and Java.
> And I know it's an old thing, but the fact that Go was once adamantly against generics...
Erlang not only lacks generics, but it lacks any static type system at all…
Rather than entire languages, I'd say that feature adoption is more likely the better indicator. Like generics, first-class functions, lambdas, error-handling (I'm partial to monads like `Result`), etc.
If one wanted, they could put ecosystem tooling here as well (e.g. `gofmt` saving everyone time and mental health).
Also, to clarify, I'm not arguing that Erlang > Go, I don't (purposefully) use either, though I have to read Go sometimes.
The irony is that it ended up more complicated than it neeeded to be because it was added on later and had to be backwards compatible. I think if go had had generics from the beginning it could have had a simpler design. And go wouldn't have needed magic functions like make and len that are kind of generic, but not in the same way as user-defined generic functions.
SamInTheShell · · focus · HN ↗
Just from observations over the years, I don't think there's any other language quite like this, in terms of how things can end up happening in any thread.
hank1931 · · focus · HN ↗
Supposedly WhatsApp scaled to serving over 1 billion users with Erlang and BEAM.
RabbitMQ, used by Reddit, uses Erlang and BEAM.
Discord uses Elixer and BEAM.
I just traveled down the BEAM rabbit hole. Fascinating story. The Ericsson Computer Science Laboratory cranked out some amazing products in the early 1990's.
Their goal was five nines of reliability for Ericsson telephone switches.
According to Joe Armstrong (an interesting fellow from Ericsson), the AXD301 ATM switch achieved nine nines over a nine-month period using Erlang and BEAM in 2002. That calculates out to 24 milliseconds of downtime.
CoolestBeans · · focus · HN ↗
winwang · · focus · HN ↗
CoolestBeans · · focus · HN ↗
Of course, in some sense fault tolerance and scaling are two sides of the same coin. They're both measures of availability. They're just different approaches to that.
What Go achieves that Erlang doesn't is the ability to "pick up and play". What Erlang achieves that Go doesn't is a pathological commitment to the system whole never going down.
jcgl · · focus · HN ↗
Once a sufficiently good proposal was made, generics were adopted.
jasonwatkinspdx · · focus · HN ↗
throwaway894345 · · focus · HN ↗
On the other hand, Erlang has been out for ages and has largely failed to attract much adoption, so it doesn’t seem like the market finds it to be “optimal” either. Not that popularity is everything, but over time a language better languages should increase their market share, especially if your language got its start during an era where the competition was C and C++ and Java.
> And I know it's an old thing, but the fact that Go was once adamantly against generics...
Erlang not only lacks generics, but it lacks any static type system at all…
OoooooooO · · focus · HN ↗
And most software does apparently not need what it offers.
winwang · · focus · HN ↗
If one wanted, they could put ecosystem tooling here as well (e.g. `gofmt` saving everyone time and mental health).
Also, to clarify, I'm not arguing that Erlang > Go, I don't (purposefully) use either, though I have to read Go sometimes.
thayne · · focus · HN ↗