Thread

1. CamperBob2 · 1790363982 · focus · HN ↗

   Even Russia would be better off today if we'd given Ukraine the tools to beat them back a couple of years ago.

   1. petcat · 1790365076 · focus · HN ↗

      Europe has hard decisions to make about what an end to the war in Ukraine will look like, and whether that means ceding territory. Ukraine is never going to recapture the territory that it has lost without European troops on the ground. Macron famously said that he would "have to send guys to Odesa" and yet 3 years later there are still no French troops in Ukraine and Russia has since captured even more territory and is actively bombarding Kyiv. Europe simply cannot keep carving out $100 billion military aid packages every year indefinitely.

      Tough decisions have to be made and, despite public criticism and posture, every EU leader is secretly hoping USA can broker a peace deal and this all just kind of goes away.

      1. jltsiren · 1790370182 · focus · HN ↗

         Nobody is hoping for a peace deal. The goals of Russia and Ukraine are too incompatible for any peace deal European leaders could support. Everyone has resigned to the fact that the war will go on, until the internal politics in either country make it impossible to continue. Or until something completely unexpected happens.

         And the $100 billion/year military aid can go on indefinitely, because it's only a fraction of the increased military spending due to the war. If the war ends too soon with the terms favoring Russia, Europe would have to spend even more to increase the pace of its remilitarization.

         1. hollerith · 1790374514 · focus · HN ↗

            >Nobody is hoping for a peace deal.

            I'm hoping for a peace deal.

            1. KellyCriterion · 1790429237 · focus · HN ↗

               Wondering why this gets downvotes?

               1. CamperBob2 · 1790435687 · focus · HN ↗

                  There's been a recent influx of pro-Russian astroturfers here and elsewhere. I have a feeling something seriously bad is about to happen.

                  Alternatively, people could be reading hollerith's post as "I want Ukraine to do whatever's necessary to make peace with Russia," which is obviously downvote-worthy.

                  I personally chose to read it as "I want a peace deal that involves Russia G'ing TFO and paying reparations," but he did leave room for other interpretations.

            2. tim333 · 1790430020 · focus · HN ↗

               I'm hoping too. Basically everyone has been up for a peace deal apart from Putin. It will likely be harder for him to keep the agression up now Russia burns and runs low on money.

               1. icannotstandit · 1790500980 · focus · HN ↗

                  This is factually incorrect. The west torpedoed a peace agreement in early 2022, I think it was Johnson, though probably it was really the Pentagon and your "secret services". And you cannot expect Russia to accept a peace agreement which is just a pretext to gather forces to attack Russia in the future.

                  1. tim333 · 1790517295 · focus · HN ↗

                     The 2022 "peace agreement" was something like give up your territory and weapons so we can take the rest when we feel like it. That it was more is mostly Russia propaganda based on the details not being published so they can make up stuff.

                     "pretext to gather forces to attack Russia in the future"

                     For goodness sake Russia is 100% the aggressor in this. If they hadn't started killing the neighbours no one would be hitting them.

                     1. icannotstandit · 1790682326 · focus · HN ↗

                        "Russi is 100% aggressor in this" - if you tell that, you understand nothing.

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