Thread

U.S. appeals court upholds designation of Anthropic as supply chain risk

499 points · 900 comments · cramer4next

ApolloFortyNine · 1790356118 · focus · HN ↗
I know everyone says this is political but it actually seems like a textbook designation. Anthropic wanted to have rules on how the military used AI, the military said no and therefore doesn't want anthropic used anywhere in their supply line.
This is like a pen manufacturer not wanting their pens used to sign drone strike orders, now the military needs to have a special box of pens that don't have stipulations attached. With AI usage it would be the same thing except applied to entire product chains. It seems like it would just add more complexity to operations.
You can agree with the rules anthropic wanted, but having rules set by a private company at all that apply to the military does seem fair for the military to object to.
>The Department reasonably feared that Anthropic might manipulate Claude’s design to prevent it from performing national-security functions that the Department deems contractually authorized and necessary
Though they'd probably put the DoD on the cybersecurity whitelist today, the very idea of the claude whitelists for certain functionality already exists and is being used by them today.
1. jzb · 1790359108 · focus · HN ↗
  “the military said no and therefore doesn't want anthropic used anywhere in their supply line”
  It’s clearly a punitive measure and has nothing to do with national security.
  If a supplier uses Anthropic to develop a product, how does that pose a risk to the DoD or national security? The DoD can specify that a third party system can’t rely on Anthropic for DoD use without designating the company a supply risk. It was very clear that the administration was punishing the company for saying “no”.
  1. frumplestlatz · 1790359216 · focus · HN ↗
    Anthropic took the position that our military’s decision making power should be subordinate to Anthropic’s constraints.
    Any dependency on a company that thinks they have that moral authority and has the technical means to enforce it is absolutely a risk to the supply chain.
    If you want to blame someone or something for this, we should start with Dario and “effective altruism”.
    Dylan16807 · 1790366447 · focus · HN ↗
    > Anthropic took the position that our military’s decision making power should be subordinate to Anthropic’s constraints.
    Not at all. They want their product kept out of specific decisions because it's not capable.
    firesteelrain · 1790368302 · focus · HN ↗
    > They want their product kept out of specific decisions because it's not capable.
    Herein lies the DoW’s point. Anthropic can’t dictate how the DoW conducts business.
    tsimionescu · 1790369422 · focus · HN ↗
    Of course they can. Any supplier is free to set terms for how their products are to be used. The DoD is free to not agree to those terms - but it's not free to then claim the company that offered those terms is a security risk, and bar any DoD supplier from using them for any purpose - which is what the extreme measure they took represents.
    firesteelrain · 1790369994 · focus · HN ↗
    > but it's not free to then claim the company that offered those terms is a security risk
    Yes they are free to do that. You have to blame Congress for giving them that authority under the Federal Acquisition Supply Chain Security Act and specifically 41 U.S.C. § 4713.
    But Claude’s ToS didn’t prohibit use of Claude for sensitive military operation but it was coded to do so. It was part of the government’s evidence
    tsimionescu · 1790371246 · focus · HN ↗
    No, they can only do that if a company is a true supply chain risk. Not everyone some idiot in the government doesn't like is a such a huge risk to the country that they can be banned from doing business with anyone doing business with the DoD.
    Ultimately this is for the courts to decide, and the current decision is not final. And while the two Trump-nominated judges agreed with you, the other judge agrees with me - so at least we can say that neither my nor your position is legally absurd.
    firesteelrain · 1790371639 · focus · HN ↗
    I don’t use those words but I agree it’s unsettled.
    satvikpendem · 1790370796 · focus · HN ↗
    > but it's not free to then claim the company that offered those terms is a security risk, and bar any DoD supplier from using them for any purpose
    Just because you disagree with a power of the government does not mean the government does not have that power.
    tsimionescu · 1790371421 · focus · HN ↗
    Sure, but also just because Congress gave the government a power to take an extraordinary measure in an extraordinary circumstance doesn't mean that the government can simply claim the circumstance happens all the time and use the measure whenever it strikes the fancy of some executive.
    Ultimately whether Anthropic is a true supply chain risk for the United States military is a question of fact, and the courts will have to decide. That the President or Secretary of Defense doesn't like a company doesn't make them a supply chain risk.
    satvikpendem · 1790371501 · focus · HN ↗
    Sure, which is why the judicial branch reviews such decisions, and has reviewed this one and has come to the conclusion that it was justified. Just because you don't like their ruling doesn't make it not binding.
    tsimionescu · 1790371691 · focus · HN ↗
    Their ruling is not final yet, per the article. I'm also free to disagree with the correctness and propriety of a judicial ruling and believe it was biased (of course, I do have to still abide by it, to the extent that it applies to me in any way). That it's binding doesn't mean it's right and that it is in accord with the law and/or the constitution.
    satvikpendem · 1790371980 · focus · HN ↗
    A judicial ruling is by definition in accord with the law or constitution (because it literally becomes the law) whether you or I like it or not, if and until such a time as it is overturned.
    kelnos · 1790373878 · focus · HN ↗
    No, I don't think that's correct. Humans are fallible, and just because a court says that something is in accord with law/constitution, doesn't mean it actually is.
    That distinction is academic, of course, because when the courts decide a certain way, then of course that's how things will play out.
    Well, except when the Trump admin ignores court orders.
    satvikpendem · 1790379125 · focus · HN ↗
    Seems like you're conflating legal and moral. The law is exactly what the legislature and courts say it is, because it is what's written down. That doesn't mean it's always morally right.
    Dylan16807 · 1790453188 · focus · HN ↗
    This isn't about morals, it's about legal correctness.
    If a ruling will get overturned in the future, then it's wrong today. It's enforceable until it's overturned, but it's not correct. Two judges making opposite decisions about the same question are not both right.
    (I'm assuming the overturning is valid for the sake of simplicity. If it isn't then the argument is the same but mirrored.)
    satvikpendem · 1790475238 · focus · HN ↗
    No, it's correct today with the best of our society's knowledge. You can't retroactively say it was wrong looking from today into the future. Only once we get to the future and something is overturned can we say the past decision wasn't correct.
    Dylan16807 · 1790608946 · focus · HN ↗
    We can't tell the future.
    But we can say that if it will be overturned, it's wrong today.
    We do not have to wait to use basic logic.
    satvikpendem · 1790611910 · focus · HN ↗
    If being the operative word. Because we cannot tell the future we cannot operate on the assumption that it is wrong now.
    Dylan16807 · 1790630670 · focus · HN ↗
    Nobody is operating on assumptions. They're giving an opinion on a ruling that doesn't directly affect them.
    satvikpendem · 1790635402 · focus · HN ↗
    A ruling being binding is the law, it literally becomes the law regardless of what you or I believe it to be. Maybe you and I just have different definitions of what is law. To me, it is law today if it is ruled on and can be enforced regardless of whatever happens to it in the future.
    Dylan16807 · 1790636243 · focus · HN ↗
    Rulings go on top of laws go on top of the constitution. And any level can be in violation of the levels below it. A law can be unconstitutional, and a ruling can be "not in accord with the law and/or the constitution".
    > Maybe you and I just have different definitions of what is law.
    Maybe. But I think my interpretation is the same as what kelnos meant.
    satvikpendem · 1790726686 · focus · HN ↗
    > In a more generic context we can call it all "law", but for specifically talking about a ruling not being in accord with the law, that's not the definition being used.
    Well that's the definition I'm using so that's where we disagree it seems.
    tsimionescu · 1790403543 · focus · HN ↗
    A judicial ruling is separate from a law, and it's actually quite common for judicial rulings to be found non-constitutional (or even struck down by a normal higher court, if we're talking in general and not this particular case). In particular, only judges are bound by precedent, and even then, only precedent from their own circuit, not the entire USA. Whereas laws made by contract are binding on everyone, and they apply federally.
    satvikpendem · 1790410453 · focus · HN ↗
    Rulings are a type of law, as in the general term of something written down and set together (literally, leges) that binds one of the populace with their society. As I said, until they are modified by the legislature or struck down by another court, they are the law of the land.
    freebsd_lovefes · 1790443845 · focus · HN ↗
    Oh, pfff, please, this is some kindergarten nonsense.
    These are not equal market participants coming together to exchange goods and services. This is government and a private entity. This is nuclear weapons with public trust and god knows what.
    kelnos · 1790373757 · focus · HN ↗
    Well, that's what this court case is about. The government believes they have that power, and Anthropic and others believe they don't. You clearly believe they do, and I clearly believe they don't. It's fine to disagree. Ultimately SCOTUS may decide on this, and that'll be the final word. Not that SCOTUS is always correct in its rulings, but at the end of the day, their decision is final.
    satvikpendem · 1790379230 · focus · HN ↗
    Indeed. Not sure why people in this thread are saying it's not in accordance with the law when at least as of this current ruling it is.
    SpicyLemonZest · 1790389756 · focus · HN ↗
    Because this is an illegitimate ruling with no legal basis issued by an aspiring dictator's cronies.
    satvikpendem · 1790410493 · focus · HN ↗
    Lots of people also seem to want to deny something they don't like being ruled correctly.
    SpicyLemonZest · 1790438769 · focus · HN ↗
    I've got no issue siding against Anthropic when they're wrong! Anthropic had a similar dispute with Bessent over the Fable launch, and there I take the government's side without reservation. If the government thinks they've found a national security problem with your highly capable new model, obviously you should agree to voluntarily withdraw it until they're satisfied, even if your best and correct guess is that it's just a minor jailbreak.
    But they're not wrong here.
    satvikpendem · 1790442319 · focus · HN ↗
    They are wrong because Anthropic has a history of trying to sabotage people they don't trust, see the Fable release and the backlash from that.
    SpicyLemonZest · 1790444972 · focus · HN ↗
    [delayed]
    satvikpendem · 1790475330 · focus · HN ↗
    > The backlash to the Fable release saw a number of social media influencers promoting a similar lie, which I frankly suspect was part of a coordinated Trumpist media effort.
    Alright, not worth talking to conspiracy theorists (even if Anthropic literally said so in their release blog posts).
    godelski · 1790376417 · focus · HN ↗
    > Just because you disagree with a power of the government does not mean the government does not have that power.
    Sure, but we live in a democracy, not a dictatorship. The government doesn't just get to do whatever it wants. People and corporations have certain freedoms. One of those freedoms is not being compelled to work with the government. The government can't force a company to work for them except under extreme circumstances. Which currently no extreme circumstances have been claimed and no one is talking about nationalizing (the act of forcing the company to work for the government) anthropic
    satvikpendem · 1790379172 · focus · HN ↗
    The law being used was passed by Congress who is elected democratically and then reinforced by the judiciary who is either also voted in democratically or appointed by the democratically elected Congress. Lots of people want the US to be a dictatorship but it's a far cry from an actual one.
    kelnos · 1790373655 · focus · HN ↗
    > Anthropic can’t dictate how the DoW conducts business.
    Sure they can. The DoD is bound by terms of use and contract terms for any product from any company that they use. They don't get a special pass just because they're the military.
    firesteelrain · 1790375588 · focus · HN ↗
    I think you are latching onto terms that were not declared. This is covered in the Appeals court case.

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