Cars that are designed from the ground up to be EVs tend to be much better than trying to shoehorn an EV into an ICE design.
The new Lexus ES350e, which comes in both hybrid and EV flavors, has been pretty universally panned as a mediocre EV [1]. Lexus anticipates that the vast majority of ES sales will be for the hybrid model, and I expect the same will be true of the Corolla.
The updated bZ and new bZ Woodland on the other hand, which are built as ground-up EVs on the e-TNGA platform, actually seem pretty decent. And I'm hopeful for the upcoming EV Highlander, too (although that will use a modified version of the TNGA-K platform).
I would prefer if Toyota just released a new EV model with roughly the same proportions as the Corolla, instead of going with the one-size-fits-all approach. But maybe they'll finally be able to get it right this time.
Everyone thought Toyota was Nokia when Tesla appeared... I think those days are over. Toyota survived that one already with a facelift for Prius.
BYD Dolphin base in Japan is $19k, the new Racco kei car is $14k. They're not doing so well - they just have no selling point. They're not even the cheapest of EVs in Japan, let alone the cheapest of all cars for Japan - $19k is literally 4k over the current gen JDM Corolla. I think that is an indication that BYD has no secret sauce but their pricing are just introductory one to starve off last bits of Western industrial capacities spared by Japanese automakers.
Japanese atrocities during WW2 are documented. The comment was about Chinese vehicle sales in Japan. But Chinese vehicles are selling like gangbusters everywhere else. It is important to understand the context. There is animosity between these countries going back quite some time.
Do you think South Koreans would buy a North Korean made car, even if were better? Would Israeli's buy a car made by Iran? Would Indians buy a Pakistani made car?
Also, Japan's #1 export is automobiles. They have the future of their country tied to the automobile industry which is dying (China overtakes Japan in auto exports with boost from EVs
:<a href="https://asia.nikkei.com/business/automobiles/china-overtakes-japan-in-auto-exports-with-boost-from-evs" rel="nofollow">https://asia.nikkei.com/business/automobiles/china-overtakes...). Japanese wouldn't be super interested in buying Chinese cars and destroying their domestic market as well.
How the massacre still haunts China-Japan relations: <a href="https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp89ed9j5ygo" rel="nofollow">https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp89ed9j5ygo
> Do you think South Koreans would buy a North Korean made car, even if were better?
They're not buying Japanese cars. They prefer domestic cars or European Luxury brands (like Maserati). By the same metric, Japanese won't buy Chinese made cars. Ther market share is under1%.
Money is money mate -- plenty of Toyotas in China. It's the politicians stopping it with taxes and tariffs. Everyone has a price, how much is history worth at a 5k discount? 10k?
freetime2 has a better explanation (sibling comment): <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49841283">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49841283
I would say it is more likely to do with the fact that:
* BYD is new in Japan (since 2023) compared to other automakers which have built up trust over many decades.
* There are only 55 BYD dealerships in Japan vs 5,000 Toyota dealerships, 2,200 Nissan dealerships, 2,200 Honda dealerships, 1,500 Suzuki dealerships, etc.
* BYD offers a limited range of models in Japan - 6 in total. No minivan, for example, where minivans make up 6 of the 10 best selling (non-kei) car models in Japan
* Japan is very slow to adopt EVs in general. Charging infrastructure is poor
* BYD EVs and PHEVs qualify for a much smaller CEV rebate [1] than Japanese models, Teslas, etc. This eats away at much of the cost benefits
* BYD only just introduced their first kei model to Japan last month. It has been well reviewed, but even BYD isn’t expecting to sell a ton of them in their first year, let alone first month, due to the aforementioned circumstances.
Or we could just say it’s because Japanese are racist and won’t buy Chinese things - despite the fact that 22% of all Japan’s imports currently come from China. Because that feels correct, I guess?
To be clear I do recognize that are tensions between Japan and China. And there are plenty of Japanese people who would prefer to buy Japanese-made goods, or prefer to avoid Chinese-made goods (to the extent that's even possible). But there are plenty of Americans, Europeans, etc who feel similarly - and they aren't typically called racist for having the same preferences. There are valid reasons like wanting to support domestic businesses, or not relying on geopolitical rivals for manufacturing, that have nothing to do with racism. Canadians are boycotting US goods right now, for example. Is that because Canadians are especially racist?
And Japanese consumers are just as price sensitive as anyone else. As the end of the day, if they can get more car for less money buying Chinese cars (and if the cars and sales and support process can be sufficiently tailored to Japanese preferences), then Chinese automakers can be successful in Japan.
freetime2 · · focus · HN ↗
The new Lexus ES350e, which comes in both hybrid and EV flavors, has been pretty universally panned as a mediocre EV [1]. Lexus anticipates that the vast majority of ES sales will be for the hybrid model, and I expect the same will be true of the Corolla.
The updated bZ and new bZ Woodland on the other hand, which are built as ground-up EVs on the e-TNGA platform, actually seem pretty decent. And I'm hopeful for the upcoming EV Highlander, too (although that will use a modified version of the TNGA-K platform).
I would prefer if Toyota just released a new EV model with roughly the same proportions as the Corolla, instead of going with the one-size-fits-all approach. But maybe they'll finally be able to get it right this time.
[1] <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQ97R1nhq4M" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQ97R1nhq4M
thelastgallon · · focus · HN ↗
Indeed. Toyota's days are numbered.
BYD is selling EVs for US$14K in Australia. Toyota is Nokia, they don't know it just yet. Corolla EV is 30K USD, gas 25K.
AUD 19,900 driveway (means taxes, registration etc included), or about US$14K: <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49772728">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49772728
numpad0 · · focus · HN ↗
BYD Dolphin base in Japan is $19k, the new Racco kei car is $14k. They're not doing so well - they just have no selling point. They're not even the cheapest of EVs in Japan, let alone the cheapest of all cars for Japan - $19k is literally 4k over the current gen JDM Corolla. I think that is an indication that BYD has no secret sauce but their pricing are just introductory one to starve off last bits of Western industrial capacities spared by Japanese automakers.
thelastgallon · · focus · HN ↗
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baxtr · · focus · HN ↗
thelastgallon · · focus · HN ↗
Do you think South Koreans would buy a North Korean made car, even if were better? Would Israeli's buy a car made by Iran? Would Indians buy a Pakistani made car?
Also, Japan's #1 export is automobiles. They have the future of their country tied to the automobile industry which is dying (China overtakes Japan in auto exports with boost from EVs :<a href="https://asia.nikkei.com/business/automobiles/china-overtakes-japan-in-auto-exports-with-boost-from-evs" rel="nofollow">https://asia.nikkei.com/business/automobiles/china-overtakes...). Japanese wouldn't be super interested in buying Chinese cars and destroying their domestic market as well.
How the massacre still haunts China-Japan relations: <a href="https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp89ed9j5ygo" rel="nofollow">https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp89ed9j5ygo
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_Massacre" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_Massacre
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Japanese_war_crimes_in_China" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Japanese_war_crimes_i...
cpursley · · focus · HN ↗
LtWorf · · focus · HN ↗
petre · · focus · HN ↗
They're not buying Japanese cars. They prefer domestic cars or European Luxury brands (like Maserati). By the same metric, Japanese won't buy Chinese made cars. Ther market share is under1%.
baxtr · · focus · HN ↗
btw: if your theory was true the entire EU shouldn’t exist.
numpad0 · · focus · HN ↗
podocarp · · focus · HN ↗
baq · · focus · HN ↗
numpad0 · · focus · HN ↗
thelastgallon · · focus · HN ↗
freetime2 · · focus · HN ↗
* BYD is new in Japan (since 2023) compared to other automakers which have built up trust over many decades.
* There are only 55 BYD dealerships in Japan vs 5,000 Toyota dealerships, 2,200 Nissan dealerships, 2,200 Honda dealerships, 1,500 Suzuki dealerships, etc.
* BYD offers a limited range of models in Japan - 6 in total. No minivan, for example, where minivans make up 6 of the 10 best selling (non-kei) car models in Japan
* Japan is very slow to adopt EVs in general. Charging infrastructure is poor
* BYD EVs and PHEVs qualify for a much smaller CEV rebate [1] than Japanese models, Teslas, etc. This eats away at much of the cost benefits
* BYD only just introduced their first kei model to Japan last month. It has been well reviewed, but even BYD isn’t expecting to sell a ton of them in their first year, let alone first month, due to the aforementioned circumstances.
Or we could just say it’s because Japanese are racist and won’t buy Chinese things - despite the fact that 22% of all Japan’s imports currently come from China. Because that feels correct, I guess?
To be clear I do recognize that are tensions between Japan and China. And there are plenty of Japanese people who would prefer to buy Japanese-made goods, or prefer to avoid Chinese-made goods (to the extent that's even possible). But there are plenty of Americans, Europeans, etc who feel similarly - and they aren't typically called racist for having the same preferences. There are valid reasons like wanting to support domestic businesses, or not relying on geopolitical rivals for manufacturing, that have nothing to do with racism. Canadians are boycotting US goods right now, for example. Is that because Canadians are especially racist?
And Japanese consumers are just as price sensitive as anyone else. As the end of the day, if they can get more car for less money buying Chinese cars (and if the cars and sales and support process can be sufficiently tailored to Japanese preferences), then Chinese automakers can be successful in Japan.
[1] <a href="https://www.cev-pc.or.jp/hojo/pdf/R7ho/R7ho_meigaragotojougen_3.pdf" rel="nofollow">https://www.cev-pc.or.jp/hojo/pdf/R7ho/R7ho_meigaragotojouge...
thelastgallon · · focus · HN ↗