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Italian parliament votes for return to nuclear energy

908 points · 818 comments · geox

  1. jacquesm · · focus · HN ↗
    I've seen quite a few SMR proposals over the last couple of years and not a single one that dared to address the whole cycle from deployment to eventual decommission as a function of the total revenues - costs to operate. Most of these projects seem to be made to bilk investors or governments rather than to actually produce power. The day Italy produces the first KWh that is net profitable to the operators without counting subsidies I will be highly amazed, and that's assuming they get to operational in the first place.
    1. asmodeuslucifer · · focus · HN ↗
      I agree, I tell everyone who will listen that no country, not Russia, China, Japan, France, USA etc has ever made nuclear power profitable. And you can't blame it on the environmentalists in China and Russia.

      That being said, many countries consider it a national security issue not to be held hostage to foreign oil.

      1. Hammershaft · · focus · HN ↗
        That... doesn't seem true?

        <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;m.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=cbeJIwF1pVY" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;m.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=cbeJIwF1pVY

        Here&#x27;s an Illinois professor going through the economics compared to a gas plant.

        Nuclear power can become dramatically cheaper than other energy sources in the long run.

        1. epistasis · · focus · HN ↗
          Some people have irrational exuberance around nuclear technologies, and the numbers in that overly long explanation are an example of that. $5B for 1GW of nuclear?! HAH!

          There&#x27;s a systematic bias among all energy professionals to both vastly underestimate the cost of building nuclear, and overestimate the cost of solar, wind, and storage.

          Go back 5 or 10 years, look at the numbers projected, and it&#x27;s just wild. I&#x27;ve never seen any other industry where there&#x27;s such a mass hallucination among people that otherwise consider themselves &quot;serious people.&quot;

          1. red75prime · · focus · HN ↗
            Look at LFSCOE instead of LCOE. The electric grid can absorb a bit of intermittency relatively cheaply, but then you need to account for the system costs.
            1. epistasis · · focus · HN ↗
              Or LACE, or Lazard&#x27;s &quot;Cost of Firming Intermittency&quot; or whatever metric you want...

              The systematic bias against renewables and irrational exuberance around nuclear is true across all of those metrics.

              Even people that make their living on renewables underestimate how quickly it gets cheap. Jenny Chase, famous for pointing out that people underestimate the pace of solar technology, also underestimates solar technology.

              1. pfdietz · · focus · HN ↗
                &gt; Yes literally &quot;physics&quot; that they can&#x27;t quite seem to cite.

                Those arguments typically assume Li-ion batteries will be used for seasonal storage, which is a completely clown argument.

                1. esarbe · · focus · HN ↗
                  I&#x27;ve yet to see any serious engineer make the argument that Li-ion batteries will be used for seasonal storage. I&#x27;ve more often seen it used as a straw man argument against renewables.
                  1. pfdietz · · focus · HN ↗
                    I&#x27;ve seen the argument made plenty of times. Even nuclear engineers from MIT basically made this argument!
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