By that logic all food production and distribution should not be privatized because is should be for the public good rather then the profit of the few.
There are are arguments to be made about private or public but that logic makes no sense.
Some system that have many private aspects outperform other public systems and the other way around. And even in a public system many people will profit as many of the companies that are your suppliers are still for profit.
> By that logic all food production and distribution should not be privatized because is should be for the public good rather then the profit of the few.
Sounds like good logic to me, at least for essentials!
If you want to make the argument that anything that is essential should be publicly owned you can make that argument. But I would suggest if you want to make that argument 'nobody should make profit' shouldn't be the relevant argument. The argument should be 'this is how we can solve X problem efficiently'.
Okay: it’s obviously inefficient for some people to collect profit on essential services where competition is meaningless. That money should be going to improving the service for all, or paying the workers better, or ideally both. It would be more efficient to collectively organise food, shelter, healthcare, and other natural monopolies. Market competition can be for non-essentials where some inefficiency is acceptable.
You seem to think "efficiency" is the issue.
No. The issue is that there is an almost unlimited demand for healthcare.
That is true regardless of capitalism or marxism or whateverism you believe is the right answer.
Avoiding talking about money: it is easy to see the underlying issue of how should we balance a doctor's lifetime versus patients' needs versus the businesses that ultimately pay tax for it all.
We have public healthcare in New Zealand (a huge percentage of our economy is run by our government - almost socialist). Here we restrict healthcare by waitlists, beaurocracy, and other tricks. It mostly works, but the nurses that I know give too much, and are flaming out.
Meanwhile I've done the dirty boring capitalist work of bringing in overseas income to pay for our beautiful services, and I've reached my personal limit of balancing working harder versus gaining extra income (for myself and my government). I'm taxed at a demotivating rate. There's fuck all respect for being the guy bringing in the bacon to the country. I get to look forward to being treated like a boomer in a few years.
I love kumbayaa political beliefs, but not when I'm the donkey.
You’re talking at cross purposes here, there’s nothing “kumbaya” about what I’m saying. We all have to work hard for the stuff in this world and that would be the case whatever the economic system, for the foreseeable future. I just don’t want the result of that hard work to be hoarded by the bosses, that’s all.
The point is that I'm in a country that is closer to what you said you wanted (compared against the USA).
The vast majority of healthcare here is not profit oriented but instead is run by the NZ govt.
The purpose of most business is money, and few people would choose to be a boss without the financial winnings. I had the opportunity to roll the dice with everything: because fortunately I'm in a country that still has a backstop.
However the boss payout result is quite simply not worth the risk; because the median return for a startup is $0. Remaining an employee would have been a more sensible decision.
Other people like you complain, and I accept that is part of the deal I chose.
I am smart enough to have had the choice of alternative lifestyle paths like teaching or being an artist.
Meanwhile, I'm literally the guy paying for our social welfare and health system because I'm an export earner. Obviously the NZ economy deserves its return on its investment in me and our business environment.
But if you want to imply someone is greedy, then look at yourself or at your government.
There wouldn’t be half the complaints if we didn’t see the wealth disparity that we do, or the horror that is the US healthcare system. If you are running a respectable business that pays your employees fairly, has as good working conditions as you can, isn’t profiting from some fully privatised necessity, and pays its taxes, while it may not be my idea of utopia, you’re not the target of my ire.
I'm quite sure we are agreeing on many things.
I sometimes wonder whether capitalism is an emergent property? Or perhaps it is a dominant strategy. I visited Shenzhen and it was chokka full of entrepreneurs - I'm yet to structure my ideas around that.
Then I read about those weird papers that use basic trading strategies that result in power-law wealth distributions.
I always wonder when people complain about those that have more than them, because I seldom see them reflect upon themselves to see how much more they have than those below them. This especially applies to anyone living in the USA since everybody is relatively wealthy there, compared against most in the world. Too often I see the 1% complain about the 1%.
All healthcare systems I am aware of are horrors. Compare the US to the UK. We all struggle to understand the driving forces.
One underlying issue is that few people are proactive about the factors they control. Too many people are reckless with their health, and we all are great at excuses and casting blame elsewhere (and there can be evil that deserves some blame).
I'm fortunate enough that I know to chase intangibles.
Too many people let money dominate their worldview.
I'm also incredibly lucky to be born in New Zealand, where plenty of people also want good intangibles. And I see fewer in my circle here fight to get money/power/status.
I thought I disliked philosophy, but perhaps I like it ;)
osmukka · · focus · HN ↗
panick21_ · · focus · HN ↗
There are are arguments to be made about private or public but that logic makes no sense.
Some system that have many private aspects outperform other public systems and the other way around. And even in a public system many people will profit as many of the companies that are your suppliers are still for profit.
dwb · · focus · HN ↗
Sounds like good logic to me, at least for essentials!
panick21_ · · focus · HN ↗
dwb · · focus · HN ↗
robocat · · focus · HN ↗
No. The issue is that there is an almost unlimited demand for healthcare.
That is true regardless of capitalism or marxism or whateverism you believe is the right answer.
Avoiding talking about money: it is easy to see the underlying issue of how should we balance a doctor's lifetime versus patients' needs versus the businesses that ultimately pay tax for it all.
We have public healthcare in New Zealand (a huge percentage of our economy is run by our government - almost socialist). Here we restrict healthcare by waitlists, beaurocracy, and other tricks. It mostly works, but the nurses that I know give too much, and are flaming out.
Meanwhile I've done the dirty boring capitalist work of bringing in overseas income to pay for our beautiful services, and I've reached my personal limit of balancing working harder versus gaining extra income (for myself and my government). I'm taxed at a demotivating rate. There's fuck all respect for being the guy bringing in the bacon to the country. I get to look forward to being treated like a boomer in a few years.
I love kumbayaa political beliefs, but not when I'm the donkey.
dwb · · focus · HN ↗
robocat · · focus · HN ↗
The vast majority of healthcare here is not profit oriented but instead is run by the NZ govt.
The purpose of most business is money, and few people would choose to be a boss without the financial winnings. I had the opportunity to roll the dice with everything: because fortunately I'm in a country that still has a backstop.
However the boss payout result is quite simply not worth the risk; because the median return for a startup is $0. Remaining an employee would have been a more sensible decision.
Other people like you complain, and I accept that is part of the deal I chose.
I am smart enough to have had the choice of alternative lifestyle paths like teaching or being an artist.
Meanwhile, I'm literally the guy paying for our social welfare and health system because I'm an export earner. Obviously the NZ economy deserves its return on its investment in me and our business environment.
But if you want to imply someone is greedy, then look at yourself or at your government.
dwb · · focus · HN ↗
robocat · · focus · HN ↗
I sometimes wonder whether capitalism is an emergent property? Or perhaps it is a dominant strategy. I visited Shenzhen and it was chokka full of entrepreneurs - I'm yet to structure my ideas around that.
Then I read about those weird papers that use basic trading strategies that result in power-law wealth distributions.
I always wonder when people complain about those that have more than them, because I seldom see them reflect upon themselves to see how much more they have than those below them. This especially applies to anyone living in the USA since everybody is relatively wealthy there, compared against most in the world. Too often I see the 1% complain about the 1%.
All healthcare systems I am aware of are horrors. Compare the US to the UK. We all struggle to understand the driving forces.
One underlying issue is that few people are proactive about the factors they control. Too many people are reckless with their health, and we all are great at excuses and casting blame elsewhere (and there can be evil that deserves some blame).
I'm fortunate enough that I know to chase intangibles.
Too many people let money dominate their worldview.
I'm also incredibly lucky to be born in New Zealand, where plenty of people also want good intangibles. And I see fewer in my circle here fight to get money/power/status.
I thought I disliked philosophy, but perhaps I like it ;)