I'm still surprised sometimes at how rapidly I can prototype something. Is it always shippable? No. But something that would've taken me an amount of time I can't afford to is much quicker.
This past weekend I decided to build an iOS app as a personal project. Normally I wouldn't have the time to work on one like that but I was able to get a working POC that is actually usable for my trivial use case in a matter of hours.
Because there's people who care about the craft, and there's people who don't.
I don't see any kind of AI-assisted coding as making anything. You didn't build that iOS app, Claude did. Maybe you can delude yourself into feeling some kind of pride or contentment in it and somehow think you built it but a lot of us who actually have a passion for the domain can't.
Imagine you're a carpenter. You've spent decades honing your skills, countless incomplete or borked projects that were recycled for newer better ones, the skin on your fingers and hands have become tougher and rough like sand paper due to how the majority of your waking hours are spent manipulating wood.
Now, someone gives that carpenter a machine that you can tell it your idea for any wood object and it just spits it out in a couple minutes and charges you a few bucks. The carpenter says, out of curiosity, "make me the roof in the Chapel of San Idelfonso", and after a little while, it spits out a nearly perfect copy of that magnum opus.
Any real carpenter would probably be disgusted, or at least feel a deep void inside them and nothing but disinterest in the machine. They'd just go back to their workshop and leave the machine outside. But that's probably because nobody becomes a carpenter to chase the current hype thing and to make money; they have passion, just like our engineers used to.
I think it depends on what you mean by "the craft".
I understand the sentiments, genuinely. I do miss the feelings of carefully crafting a great piece of code. There was a genuine sense of accomplishment there. I still get a sense of accomplishment from agentic development, but it's different. It feels more similar to when you've steered a team of people who are actually doing the work, and then the final product gets delivered. I never touched the actual work, but my input / steering / taste / direction / etc. was a big part of what was delivered. And now we have the solution that we wanted.
If you got into this field because you like to hand-write code, and that's what you view as your craft, then yeah, I think you probably are in a tough spot. There's always the opportunity to do that on your own time, just like I'm sure the vast majority of woodworkers today are doing it for fun, not as their profession.
But if you're in this field because you have a passion for building things that solve problems (you know, engineering), if that's what you view as your craft, I don't think there's any shortage of opportunities to practice your craft.
> you have a passion for building things that solve problems
The AI hypers are more about “building things” than “solving problems”. When you analyze their comments and projects, they can barely articulate what the project’s purpose is about. Or even if it can be used by somebody else. It’s always about LoC, coding speed, and specs complexity.
I always wonder what is the ratio of these projects that do "solve problems" and that appear to "solve problem" and that do not "solve problems"...
Most of times people would say the do solve them. Still I might or might not be right that quite often they do not in reality.
I know what you mean, there's definitely a contingent of people super hyped up about AI who seem to be using it to build stuff to build more stuff to build more stuff, and I don't know what actual problem they're trying to solve at the end of the day. But I'm not sure that doesn't mean there's value, like someone building carpentry tools and not actually building anything with them, but building them for others to use?
Regardless, in my case, I build a SaaS app that I sell to real non-technical small businesses in a tiny niche that helps them with a particular problem they face in their business. They don't care that it uses AI, they just need this problem solved at an affordable price so they can focus on other things. This solution that I sell would have been absolutely impossible to provide in an automated way pre-LLM, and I could never have built and grown this business on my own (in this time frame anyway, probably at all) without agentic development.
The hand-written code solves problems. Many of those are problems about how to write code. In your world, these are apparently invalidated as problems now, due to becoming less profitable: by "problem" you mean "profitable problem". Is chasing after profitable problems noble and special, I don't know, it serves demand, demand matters somewhat, fine then. But it's not the epitome of problem-solving.
The hand-written code solves problems. Many of those are problems about how to write code.
But what is code for? I don't know that I think there's any inherent value to code for its own sake. Just like I don't think a tool's value can be separated from what you do with it.
I'm not sure where the "profitable" part comes from. I know lots of people who have vibe coded little apps that solve a problem for them or their friends and family. There's no profit involved, but it solved a problem.
Can you give an example of a problem worth solving for which there is truly no demand? I don't understand that, because to me it seems like the demand is what makes a problem a problem. Otherwise it's just a state of being, and if there is no demand to change, whether yours or anyone else's, what makes it a "problem"?
I was thinking of steam locomotive enthusiasts, actually. I mean, yes, if the future of coding is similar, it would be a pretty sad, farty old hobbyist world to be consigned to. But some people understand steam engines very well, and this isn't for anything except steam engines. You get a bunch of subtle side-benefits: generic problem-solving is transferable, which in this case isn't completely generic either because the general domain is engineering and physics. There's also the history angle. It's also just interesting: who knows what the benefit is? Many assorted inspirations may crop up from the stimulation, like with pure mathematics.
But it doesn't have to be so brutally outcome-based as you're demanding, although you do get a ride on a steam train out of it too.
It's not entirely unprofitable, either, if that matters. Niche.
spike021 · · focus · HN ↗
I'm still surprised sometimes at how rapidly I can prototype something. Is it always shippable? No. But something that would've taken me an amount of time I can't afford to is much quicker.
This past weekend I decided to build an iOS app as a personal project. Normally I wouldn't have the time to work on one like that but I was able to get a working POC that is actually usable for my trivial use case in a matter of hours.
I'd call that a victory.
kode-targz · · focus · HN ↗
I don't see any kind of AI-assisted coding as making anything. You didn't build that iOS app, Claude did. Maybe you can delude yourself into feeling some kind of pride or contentment in it and somehow think you built it but a lot of us who actually have a passion for the domain can't.
Imagine you're a carpenter. You've spent decades honing your skills, countless incomplete or borked projects that were recycled for newer better ones, the skin on your fingers and hands have become tougher and rough like sand paper due to how the majority of your waking hours are spent manipulating wood. Now, someone gives that carpenter a machine that you can tell it your idea for any wood object and it just spits it out in a couple minutes and charges you a few bucks. The carpenter says, out of curiosity, "make me the roof in the Chapel of San Idelfonso", and after a little while, it spits out a nearly perfect copy of that magnum opus. Any real carpenter would probably be disgusted, or at least feel a deep void inside them and nothing but disinterest in the machine. They'd just go back to their workshop and leave the machine outside. But that's probably because nobody becomes a carpenter to chase the current hype thing and to make money; they have passion, just like our engineers used to.
senordevnyc · · focus · HN ↗
I understand the sentiments, genuinely. I do miss the feelings of carefully crafting a great piece of code. There was a genuine sense of accomplishment there. I still get a sense of accomplishment from agentic development, but it's different. It feels more similar to when you've steered a team of people who are actually doing the work, and then the final product gets delivered. I never touched the actual work, but my input / steering / taste / direction / etc. was a big part of what was delivered. And now we have the solution that we wanted.
If you got into this field because you like to hand-write code, and that's what you view as your craft, then yeah, I think you probably are in a tough spot. There's always the opportunity to do that on your own time, just like I'm sure the vast majority of woodworkers today are doing it for fun, not as their profession.
But if you're in this field because you have a passion for building things that solve problems (you know, engineering), if that's what you view as your craft, I don't think there's any shortage of opportunities to practice your craft.
skydhash · · focus · HN ↗
The AI hypers are more about “building things” than “solving problems”. When you analyze their comments and projects, they can barely articulate what the project’s purpose is about. Or even if it can be used by somebody else. It’s always about LoC, coding speed, and specs complexity.
Ekaros · · focus · HN ↗
Most of times people would say the do solve them. Still I might or might not be right that quite often they do not in reality.
Kiro · · focus · HN ↗
senordevnyc · · focus · HN ↗
Regardless, in my case, I build a SaaS app that I sell to real non-technical small businesses in a tiny niche that helps them with a particular problem they face in their business. They don't care that it uses AI, they just need this problem solved at an affordable price so they can focus on other things. This solution that I sell would have been absolutely impossible to provide in an automated way pre-LLM, and I could never have built and grown this business on my own (in this time frame anyway, probably at all) without agentic development.
card_zero · · focus · HN ↗
senordevnyc · · focus · HN ↗
But what is code for? I don't know that I think there's any inherent value to code for its own sake. Just like I don't think a tool's value can be separated from what you do with it.
I'm not sure where the "profitable" part comes from. I know lots of people who have vibe coded little apps that solve a problem for them or their friends and family. There's no profit involved, but it solved a problem.
Can you give an example of a problem worth solving for which there is truly no demand? I don't understand that, because to me it seems like the demand is what makes a problem a problem. Otherwise it's just a state of being, and if there is no demand to change, whether yours or anyone else's, what makes it a "problem"?
card_zero · · focus · HN ↗
But it doesn't have to be so brutally outcome-based as you're demanding, although you do get a ride on a steam train out of it too.
It's not entirely unprofitable, either, if that matters. Niche.