‹ BackHN Continuity

Thread

Coulomb's law remains tricky to test at home

29 points · 23 comments · surprisetalk

  1. nh23423fefe · · focus · HN ↗
    > But it's not at all obvious to me why the exponent a is 1 in nature

    i think we can rule out any exponent just by dimensional analysis if you allow powers of q, then K has ambiguous units. Same reason you cant exponentiate unitful quantities

    More specifically I think we can rule out even exponents by anti-symmetry of charge. That is q^2n = (-q)^2n which know is ruled out by experiment.

    1. amavect · · focus · HN ↗
      Show by experiment that the force of charge0 against charge1+charge2 equals the force of charge0 against charge1 plus charge0 against charge2. Induce an additive-homomorphic property F(r,q0,q1+q2) = F(r,q0,q1)+F(r,q0,q2). Then, exponent 1 follows.

      I figured this out by listing a bunch of mathematical properties. I couldn't see how the author jumps from zero-preserving to multiply-charges, and I still don't know how, but we can call it out of scope lol

        r : distance between p and q
        q0 : charge 0
        q1 : charge 1
        F : coulomb force function
        charge-commutative: F(r,q0,q1) = F(r,q1,q0)
        zero-preserving: 0 = F(r,q0,0)
        additive-homomorphic: F(r,q0,q1+q2) = F(r,q0,q1)+F(r,q0,q2)
        
        homogenous-degree-1: F(r,q0,n*q1) = n*F(r,q0,q1)
        multiplicative-separability: F(r,q0,q1) = K*R(r)*Q(q0,q1)
        multiply-charges: F(r,q0,q1) = K*R(r)*(q0*q1)^a
      
        Given F(r,q0,q1) = K*R(r)*(q0*q1)^a, charge-commutative, zero-preserving, additive-homomorphic.
        Induction using additive-homomorphic proves homogenous-degree-1. (For example, F(r,q0,2*q1) = F(r,q0,q1+q1) = 2*F(r,q0,q1))
        Equational proof follows from homogenous-degree-1:
        K*R(r)*(q0*n*q1)^a = n*K*R(r)*(q0*q1)^a
        (q0*n*q1)^a = n*(q0*q1)^a
        n^a*(q0*q1)^a = n*(q0*q1)^a
        n^a = n
        n = 0 or a = 1
        n≠0, therefore a=1.
      1. nh23423fefe · · focus · HN ↗
        Can you use the homomorphism to get that?

        F(r,q0,q1) = F(r,q0,q1+0) = F(r,q0,q1)+F(r,q0,0) = F(r,q0,q1) + 0

        1. amavect · · focus · HN ↗
          Actually, yes! We can use homogenous-degree-1 (provable from the homomorphism) to prove it.

            F(r,q0,q1)
            = F(r,q0*1,q1*1)
            = q0*q1*F(r,1,1)
          
          Very simple! It remains to show that F(r,1,1) = K/r^2, as intended.
          1. nh23423fefe · · focus · HN ↗
            I feel like that should be gettable from rotational symmetry and somehow mentioning L2 norm to get the square. Either that or conservation of E-field flux.
            1. amavect · · focus · HN ↗
              Rotational symmetry or L^2 norm only matter in vector formulations. I assumed a scalar formulation.

              Conservation of E-field flux certainly implies additive-homomorphism (addition of charges equals addition of forces). But that seems a bit ahistorical because Maxwell would develop field theory 70 years after Coloumb. Either way, the axiom you choose requires empirical justification, and I think a home hobbyist could more easily demonstrate by experiment that adding charges will add the forces.

              Or, if you meant F(r,1,1) = K/r^2, then yeah, conservation of E-field flux could give you an inverse square law. But again, that requires an experiment to justify the axiom.

Open on Hacker News to reply ↗

Unofficial Hacker News client; not affiliated with Y Combinator.