There's a continuum between "vibe coded by someone with no technical knowledge or inclination" and "hand written domain driven design development". You can absolutely use coding agents AND have maintainable code. But yes, the coding agents will not magically make everything maintainable if you don't tell them to.
"Code maintainability and good architecture don’t have good measurements that we can apply"
Who has no wisdom? There are dozens of ways to measure code maintainability. Cyclomatic complexity is just one.
Nothing stops you from wiring up something like SonarQube metrics to your agentic coding workflow.
> You can absolutely use coding agents AND have maintainable code. But yes, the coding agents will not magically make everything maintainable if you don't tell them to.
The trillion dollar question is how you do this, if your employees do not care (they are optimising for salary & time spent not code quality) and you have no way of telling apart AI slop vs. good maintainable code. (If you could you would just train the AI.)
Before AI there was at least some way to tell apart good programmers from bad, because there was some human effort involved in coding. Now with AI and slop generation there is almost now way to do this.
> if your employees do not care (they are optimising for salary & time spent not code quality)...
From what I see is it's mainly managers and higher brass who doesn't care about code quality and sustainability, and aims to drive time to market metrics down aggressively with AI.
Any employee who cares about code quality will become a poor performer with a red luddite label because they dare to change what the AI has emitted for them.
I'd love to be wrong, very wrong about this, actually.
> Any employee who cares about code quality will become a poor performer with a red luddite label because they dare to change what the AI has emitted for them.
I think that's true but it's a special case. AI is here to stay and with AI coding IS faster and quality is better than ever before. Ideally you want your luddite fired along with the slop generators and keep the ones who are using AI and taking their time to deliver a maintainable code.
> ... with AI coding IS faster and quality is better than ever before.
Is this claim based on something?
I'm not against or "for" AI (whatever that means), I try to use it as effectively I can, but for me it's not at all obvious that quality is better than ever before.
Speed I can buy, especially in new projects and utilities, but quality? At least I haven't seen this in practice, if anything I'm just seeing more code, issues, PR's and pressure ==> more slop, more bugs, less quality.
You can always say "skill issue" and "process issue", but that's partly my point here, AI doesn't magically solve this.
Presumably it is based on that person's personal experiences, like your own comment and all the other comments here?
Speaking for myself, based on my own personal experiences, quality is by far the bigger advantage of these tools. It has never ever been easier to write automated tests and to automate tedious manual validation. I'm running my code through like 10x more paces than I ever did before, because I can just say "hey try running this in these twenty different ways" (including with browser automation, if that's relevant), without needing to either do the tedious steps to run all that or to take the time to write a script to do it, and to compile and attach the findings to the PR. This saves me hours to days of work on validation, but the reality is that I just wouldn't have spent that time in the past, I just stopped at a lower bar for quality, because I couldn't justify the ROI for spending all that time on it. But now the ROI is huge, so it's a no brainer.
If people are not taking advantage of this, then yes, that is literally a skill issue.
For some reason this reminds me A LOT of past discussions about microservices, most wonderful on paper, but I've never seen it work out perfectly in practice, for me it's mostly been a cluster F in most companies that adopted them.
Currently I see AI similarly, in theory perfect, in practice I don't see the claimed effects. So yes, skill issue, but skills are relevant and your company probably can't hire a rockstar team (if that matters in the future).
But your comment on personal experiences was very good! Spot on, we are all biased, easy to forget. Thank you for that.
davedx · · focus · HN ↗
"Code maintainability and good architecture don’t have good measurements that we can apply"
Who has no wisdom? There are dozens of ways to measure code maintainability. Cyclomatic complexity is just one.
Nothing stops you from wiring up something like SonarQube metrics to your agentic coding workflow.
abroszka33 · · focus · HN ↗
The trillion dollar question is how you do this, if your employees do not care (they are optimising for salary & time spent not code quality) and you have no way of telling apart AI slop vs. good maintainable code. (If you could you would just train the AI.)
Before AI there was at least some way to tell apart good programmers from bad, because there was some human effort involved in coding. Now with AI and slop generation there is almost now way to do this.
bayindirh · · focus · HN ↗
From what I see is it's mainly managers and higher brass who doesn't care about code quality and sustainability, and aims to drive time to market metrics down aggressively with AI.
Any employee who cares about code quality will become a poor performer with a red luddite label because they dare to change what the AI has emitted for them.
I'd love to be wrong, very wrong about this, actually.
abroszka33 · · focus · HN ↗
I think that's true but it's a special case. AI is here to stay and with AI coding IS faster and quality is better than ever before. Ideally you want your luddite fired along with the slop generators and keep the ones who are using AI and taking their time to deliver a maintainable code.
tripledry · · focus · HN ↗
Is this claim based on something?
I'm not against or "for" AI (whatever that means), I try to use it as effectively I can, but for me it's not at all obvious that quality is better than ever before.
Speed I can buy, especially in new projects and utilities, but quality? At least I haven't seen this in practice, if anything I'm just seeing more code, issues, PR's and pressure ==> more slop, more bugs, less quality.
You can always say "skill issue" and "process issue", but that's partly my point here, AI doesn't magically solve this.
sanderjd · · focus · HN ↗
Speaking for myself, based on my own personal experiences, quality is by far the bigger advantage of these tools. It has never ever been easier to write automated tests and to automate tedious manual validation. I'm running my code through like 10x more paces than I ever did before, because I can just say "hey try running this in these twenty different ways" (including with browser automation, if that's relevant), without needing to either do the tedious steps to run all that or to take the time to write a script to do it, and to compile and attach the findings to the PR. This saves me hours to days of work on validation, but the reality is that I just wouldn't have spent that time in the past, I just stopped at a lower bar for quality, because I couldn't justify the ROI for spending all that time on it. But now the ROI is huge, so it's a no brainer.
If people are not taking advantage of this, then yes, that is literally a skill issue.
tripledry · · focus · HN ↗
For some reason this reminds me A LOT of past discussions about microservices, most wonderful on paper, but I've never seen it work out perfectly in practice, for me it's mostly been a cluster F in most companies that adopted them.
Currently I see AI similarly, in theory perfect, in practice I don't see the claimed effects. So yes, skill issue, but skills are relevant and your company probably can't hire a rockstar team (if that matters in the future).
But your comment on personal experiences was very good! Spot on, we are all biased, easy to forget. Thank you for that.
sanderjd · · focus · HN ↗