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AMD's random number generator can't generate a 0?

288 points · 220 comments · BruceEel

  1. strenholme · · focus · HN ↗
    This is why I use, in security critical contents of my software (where the numbers have to be computationally infeasible to produce), a type of random number generator called an XOF (extendable-output function).

    It takes entropy from multiple different sources, makes it all input to the XOF, then the XOF uses cryptography to output a stream that has as much entropy as the combined entropy of all of its sources of randomness. So if an XOF, for example, takes 100 runs of rdrand16, along with the system time in microseconds and the number of milliseconds between receiving 100 packets over the network, the XOF will output a completely random stream without artifacts like never returning 0x0000, even if rdrand16 never outputs 0x0000.

    1. Taek · · focus · HN ↗
      You can effectively achieve the same result with this simple operation:

        hash = sha256(current_time());
        for i := 0; i < n; i++ {
            hash = sha256(hash.append(current_time()))
        }
      
      
      This is because the number of nanoseconds between hashes is actually itself variable, and this is true for physics reasons that are basically beyond the control of any attacker trying to manipulate your entropy. If your time() function has a resolution of nanoseconds, you only need your loop to iterate about 50 times to get a cryptographically secure amount of entropy. If your time() function has a resolution of milliseconds, you need to let this run for more like 20 milliseconds, and if your time() function has a resolution of seconds you need to let it run for more like 5 seconds.

      The reason I like doing it this way is that it happens entirely in userspace, it's genuinely a secure method of generating entropy, and it has no dependencies on potentially buggy firmware or microcode outside of the time() call, which is both fairly narrow, fairly heavily used (meaning a bug is likely to be discovered during testing, as the implementation is likely heavily scrutinized), and also fairly easy to test independently - just look at the number of nanoseconds that elapse at each consecutive call to sha256(current_time()) and verify that there's some statistical variance. The above suggestions are assuming about 2.5 bits of variance between calls, meaning there should be a range of at least 20 nanoseconds between your slowest and fastest hash call. This has been true on every CPU I've ever measured, including microcontrollers.

      1. Taek · · focus · HN ↗
        I know that there's a really strong culture in the software world around downvoting anything that looks or smells like "hand-rolled cryptography", but this is my actual profession and specialization within the software world, and most of what I'm seeing in this thread is knee-jerk reactions to an unexpected technique rather than careful intellectual commentary and consideration of the merits of the technique.

        I am happy to have a discussion with you at the deepest technical levels of applied cryptography, this is not something I blindly made up on my own. I'm well studied in the field and can readily defend this technique.

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