Thread

What California is learning from solar panels built over irrigation canals

372 points · 744 comments · Jtsummers

nbf_1995 · 1790086541 · focus · HN ↗
It seems like it would be more effective to simply put all the solar panels in a field, and construct a cheap shade over the entire canal no? The supports in the picture are massive and don't look cheap. Also I would imagine the solar array uses more copper than a similar capacity array just built in a field. You can't daisy chain multiple miles of solar panels together, so you need an extra power line to run alongside the whole thing.
Put the solar panels in a field: The solar array uses less copper. The shade supports don't have to hold up solar panels: Shade supports cost less.
The best reasoning they give is that California has insane permitting requirements, and it takes 1/6 the time to build on developed land compared to undeveloped land.
1. schnevets · 1790111056 · focus · HN ↗
  Anecdotally speaking, I have heard of a massive California solar farm in an undeveloped area that has serious vandalism problems. Junkies will find ways through the fencing at night, strip copper and other materials from panels, and cause thousands in damages and lost energy just to extract enough scrap for a fix.
  Nothing short of a face-to-face security response will deter these criminals, so there it is a challenging cost-benefit balance. At least panels in parking lots and other developed spaces have the benefit of witnesses. I'm sure a 20 foot climb up a steel beam over running water is a decent deterrent as well.
  1. yongjik · 1790127716 · focus · HN ↗
    A few years ago, some foreigners entered a subway depot in South Korea, drew graffiti, and left the country before they were caught.
    South Korea put a notice on them on Interpol. At least one was arrested (at an airport in Romania), though I couldn't find any follow-up article on what happened to him. I hope he got to tour the inside of a South Korean jail.
    A society should be willing to put resources to protect is public infrastructure. In the long run, it will also be cheaper than fixing the same thing a hundred times, everyone enjoying second-grade service, or both.
    no-name-here · 1790129943 · focus · HN ↗
    The U.S. locks up a far, far, far higher rate of people than any other advanced economy. The U.S. locks up people at 5x the rate of South Korea. Whatever the difference is, it’s not because the U.S. is unwilling to punish people.
    <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcera...
    gottorf · 1790140523 · focus · HN ↗
    Your point only stands if you assume that Americans and Koreans commit crime at the same rate, which is eminently false. The high rate of incarceration in the US is directly downstream of higher criminality compared to other advanced economies.
    In fact, were Americans not constitutionally averse to stronger government, even more people would be locked up. People do stuff in America day after day that would not fly in Korea.
    watwut · 1790143090 · focus · HN ↗
    US has massively lomger sentences. It does not have that much higher ceime rates, but it loves to lock people.
    cjbgkagh · 1790144237 · focus · HN ↗
    The US has a substantially greater crime rate than South Korea.
    gottorf · 1790146651 · focus · HN ↗
    > It does not have that much higher ceime rates
    This is but one crime, but the homicide rate in the US is 5.9 per 100k, which is about 10x higher than in Korea.
    tovej · 1790148948 · focus · HN ↗
    That's just due to issues in regulating gun ownership, though.
    no-name-here · 1790151548 · focus · HN ↗
    I personally advocate evidence-based approaches to reducing gun crimes, yes. However even if we exclude guns, when I’ve previously looked at knife crime rates between US and UK, US was still was higher.
    A general comparison of crimes in SK vs US: <a href="https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/South-Korea/United-States/Crime" rel="nofollow">https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/South-Kore...
    Interestingly, embezzlement rate seems way higher in SK.
    graemep · 1790153819 · focus · HN ↗
    The non-gun murder rate in the US is about double that of the UK.
    I think the difference in the gun murder rate reflects other legal differences, such as those around carrying and storing guns more than the level of ownership. If you have to go home and unlock a safe to get a gun it gives you lots of time to cool down.
    skew-aberration · 1790148877 · focus · HN ↗
    Crime rates are not independent of incarceration rates and durations (bbviously, since incarceration is a mechanism to deter crime). We could say 'the incarceration required to reduce crime rate to x is much higher/lower in country y'.
    prmoustache · 1790153825 · focus · HN ↗
    How easy can you learn a skill while in jail? How easy do you find a job when you get out of jail?
    literalAardvark · 1790155249 · focus · HN ↗
    If it's a crime skill... Very easily. If it's a crime job, very easily.
    trollbridge · 1790164165 · focus · HN ↗
    The prisons here have programs where people who want to can complete high school and college degrees. I met a guy who had two degrees (he was in for life since he, well, killed several people.)
    KellyCriterion · 1790157689 · focus · HN ↗
    Because in US, most prisons are run by private companies. Lot of them are listed on the stock market.
    no-name-here · 1790151695 · focus · HN ↗
    <a href="https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/South-Korea/United-States/Crime" rel="nofollow">https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/South-Kore... puts US crime rate at 27% higher than SK.
    like_any_other · 1790154713 · focus · HN ↗
    Let's use a metric immune to over-policing and different definitions of "crime": <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention... puts the US homicide rate at 11.8x higher than SK.
    59percentmore · 1790161167 · focus · HN ↗
    The reliability of underlying national murder rate data may vary. Homicide rates may be under-reported for political reasons.
    Homicides are also a fraction of violent crime, let alone all crime. Also, SK suicide rate is like 70% higher than US, and 50x their homicide rate; as a collectivist culture, it's not unthinkable to suspect that some of the people who would have been murdered in other countries are just shamed into taking themselves out instead.
    like_any_other · 1790188823 · focus · HN ↗
    > The reliability of underlying national murder rate data may vary. Homicide rates may be under-reported for political reasons.
    The reliability of incarceration data can also vary, but you didn't dismiss that. In fact, all data is unreliable, so should we just give up on comparisons entirely? Unless you have a specific reason to think US/SK numbers are wrong, what you've done is provided a fully generic counterargument: "well data isn't perfect, therefore I am right and you are wrong."
    > Homicides are also a fraction of violent crime, let alone all crime.
    Typical feigned intellectual helplessness. Knowing nothing else, if the homicide rate is 2x higher, the most reasonable extrapolation is that violent crime in general is also 2x higher. And we use homicide because it's harder to fudge - if I used crime in general, your complaint would have been over-policing or different definitions instead.
    > Also, SK suicide rate
    How is suicide relevant to the incarceration rate? Especially when it's legal in both US and SK: <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_legislation" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_legislation
    59percentmore · 1790261674 · focus · HN ↗
    You presented the data as authoritative when it's clearly not, by the admission of its own compilers. This is a simple thing to disclose if you're certain that the portions your argument relies on are sound. Burden of proof lies with you.
    >, if the homicide rate is 2x higher, the most reasonable extrapolation is that violent crime in general is also 2x higher.
    Not at all. Different societies have different net values (e.g., violence as a political tool or as a means to some economic end) which will influence the deadliness of violence. So will the nature of the weapons that are available. It's reasonable to expect a trend, but lockstep is unreasonable, and you always have to question if perhaps the situation is unintuitive.
    >How is suicide relevant to the incarceration rate?
    The incarceration rate was put forward to advance an argument about the relative virtue (and implicitly the relative safety and suitability for a dignified living) of American and SK societies. Suicide rate is relevant. Do you want to make it to your next birthday or not?

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