Thread

Uber arbitration award over Emily Normandin-Parker’s death

159 points · 192 comments · dataflow

calibas · 1790002537 · focus · HN ↗
> Stone rejected Uber's argument that it is "merely a technology company" connecting riders with drivers, finding that Uber provides transportation services to the public through its app, sets prices and controls key aspects of the rider experience.
> The arbitrator also rejected Uber's argument that Proposition 22 -- a California ballot measure approved by voters in 2020 that allows companies to classify app-based drivers as independent contractors instead of employees -- prevented the company from being held liable for Tran's conduct.
The dream of every major tech company, making ridiculous profits while taking zero legal responsibility for what you create...
1. xhkkffbf · 1790004516 · focus · HN ↗
  The bad guy here is the driver. Could Uber have done more? That's what the arbitrators concluded.
  But the reality is that this is a victory for the driverless cars (Waymo, Tesla, etc.). If you want to force Uber to take responsibility for the driver, the simplest thing is to get rid of the driver.
  1. c22 · 1790005870 · focus · HN ↗
    This sounds about right. When Uber's driverless car killed someone they got off pretty easy:
    *"In March 2019, Arizona prosecutors ruled that Uber was not criminally responsible for the crash. The back-up driver of the vehicle was charged with negligent homicide, pled guilty to endangerment, and was sentenced to three years' probation." [0]
    0:<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Elaine_Herzberg" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Elaine_Herzberg
    nextaccountic · 1790008147 · focus · HN ↗
    So.. there's a driver in driverless cars. A fall guy that will take all the blame should the company needs to produce someone to be arrested, but don't otherwise have leverage to earn a decent living
    gruez · 1790008306 · focus · HN ↗
    >So.. there's a driver in driverless cars. A fall guy that will take all the blame should the company needs to produce someone to be arrested
    Are you seriously pretending the driver doesn't have agency here? This accident was easily preventable by the safety driver, which makes the "fall guy" characterization misleading. Sure, maybe there was some risk of complacency, but what's the alternative? Should uber have gone full workplace surveillance and have a camera trained on the safety driver's face, to make sure she was paying attention?
    stefan_ · 1790009484 · focus · HN ↗
    But.. they did have that? What a bizarre argument.
    And yes, if you make software that drives the car, release it into public traffic, and then your software runs someone over that would be plainly visible to a reasonable human driver (the misleading dashcam footage you release to make it seem way too dark [to a shitty dashcam sensor] notwithstanding) - you should absolutely bear responsibility! How is that even a question? You did that! Not whoever you put there as a "safety driver". We can adjudicate their responsibility separately, but it's certainly not 100%.
    gruez · 1790022524 · focus · HN ↗
    >you should absolutely bear responsibility!
    You're conveniently omitting the fact it's a self driving car prototype and that the safety driver is supposed to catch failures.
    gruez · 1790008227 · focus · HN ↗
    >When Uber's driverless car killed someone they got off pretty easy:
    The driverless car that very much had a safety driver, which got distracted because she was watching TV shows on her phone?
    chadgpt8 · 1790009146 · focus · HN ↗
    How well would you handle being paid to do nothing without distractions, 8 hours every day?
    gruez · 1790022587 · focus · HN ↗
    Train drivers seem to manage fine just fine. There are even train systems that are largely automated, with the driver largely relegated to being a "safety driver" and monitoring the doors.
    xboxnolifes · 1790027437 · focus · HN ↗
    Trains hit hundreds of people and thousands of vehicles every year, but we made it not their responsibility because you can't stop the train in time. You cannot accurately measure the comparison, since whether or not they were paying attention when they hit someone is both unknown and irrelevant.
    mrguyorama · 1790011305 · focus · HN ↗
    The driverless car which, as well as having an insufficient and negligent safety driver (a regime that the Air Transport and Train industries would be happy to provide the hundred years worth of evidence that allows us to know ahead of time that this is not going to work), also had safety devices disabled.
    The point being, you shouldn't be allowed to just hand off liability to someone you know won't handle it. I don't care what you put in any contract, hiring someone should not be a get out of liability free card. You should be on the hook for putting in the effort required to be confident that liability is managed well.
    You should in fact not be allowed to do something dangerous, but say you were not liable because the danger was someone else's responsibility. No! The danger was your responsibility, no matter who you hire to manage it!
    gruez · 1790023184 · focus · HN ↗
    >also had safety devices disabled.
    I don't see how that's a relevant point less those safety devices are mandatory. If my windshield broke, I was too lazy to fix it, and that resulted in auto-braking not working, then I was involved in an accident that could have been stopped with auto-braking, should I get extra flak because I didn't have auto-braking, even though it's not mandated?
    >The point being, you shouldn't be allowed to just hand off liability to someone you know won't handle it. I don't care what you put in any contract, hiring someone should not be a get out of liability free card. You should be on the hook for putting in the effort required to be confident that liability is managed well.
    The OP was talking about criminal responsibility. Obviously they should be responsible in civil court and pay damages, same as if UPS had one of its drivers crash into some kid. But should they be criminally responsible?

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