I was been there. I mean socialist fantasy and everyone was equally poor except party members. It is astonishing to watch this shit happening in different countries with different cultures during long period of time. But with same end. And it is not prosperity. This time in Berlin as recent example: <a href="https://www.politico.eu/article/berlin-election-housing-crisis-left-party/" rel="nofollow">https://www.politico.eu/article/berlin-election-housing-cris...
Instead of the eyes of their own politicians? Are their goals to actually effect change in Germany or to disparage Germany in the eyes of the global press?
Almost every German politician, most of the police and half the population of Germany speaks English, even though it shouldn't be used for official business. It's no barrier.
Language is also a cultural signifier. English might not be a barrier, but protesting in English certainly communicates that the protesters care not for German culture.
Half of everyone in Germany can speak English. It's mandatory to learn in schools. In Berlin that percentage is even higher. So it's no obstacle. And they don't want to limit the visibility of the protest to only Germany.
Germany is one of the more native-language-enforcing countries in Europe. I've been to Slovenia and half of everything is actually written in English, unlike Germany or France where everything's written in the local language.
Since the end of the Civil War in 1939, Spain has spent roughly 65% of the time under Right/Far-Right rule and 35% under Left/Center-Left rule.
By my count 30 years out of 48 are not nearly 100%. If you consider Suarez, Calvo-Sotelo, Aznar and Rajoy leftists you might be a bit too much out there.
You mean Spain the fastest growing European country by many metrics? Not sure, we're here, been chilling all summer, time to get back to work now :) What happened to the country you live in?
Spain’s youth unemployment is the highest in Europe. I hope it’s improving, but economically Spain has not recovered post-2008 in line with others in the EU.
No, that's not it. Instead it's the right-wing "geniuses" running the government that have been a major cause of this. The NCP and Finns Party keep making a mess of things in the name of their ideology.
> fastest growing European country by many metrics
Countries grow in secondary matters and the primary ones (civilization) remain unattended.
And by the way, when something "grows fast", do not misunderstand the indicator... Ethiopia had a 13% annual growth recently; Guyana has a 16% annual growth at this time: you are not thinking that "life is good there" and "Miami videoclip vibes everywhere", right?
> Countries grow in secondary matters and the primary ones (civilization) remain unattended.
However this has not been the case for Spain. Spain is deemed a full democracy by all objective and independent metrics. I am debating whether to even post this reply since your point to compare it to Ethiopia is so absurd you're likely not going to agree with facts. And yes, "life is good there", by also topping some, albeit, not objective quality of life metrics.
What is your definition of "civilization"? Arguing that cash payments equate to being "civilized" is honestly, very weird. Nordic countries got rid of cash payments for the most part, do you view those as uncivilized, then?
> What is your definition of "civilization"
In context, the amount of awareness, and related cultivation, distributed in the population.
Among the signs I would check the perceived and tolerated pollution: light pollution, sound pollution etc. For example, the awareness of the importance of rest is basic (the awareness of the importance of health even more), so the perception and condemnation of background noise, especially in the night, is telling. A civilized country is one in which librarians speak with a proportionate, quiet voice, not one in which they chat loudly or speak loudly on loud ringing phones.
Around these parts in Europe (that the magazine The Atlantic revealed extend to the Americas) people are increasingly driving using blinding headlights: that is not just infra-human, but infra-animal: dogs are supposed to recognize a foul smell, birds are supposed to recognize disturbing noises, and if vision-based primates cannot recognize a bothersome light, they are spoilt and wasted.
Then of course you have the higher levels of awareness (good luck). For example, the awareness of what is licence vs what is freedom, the awareness that judgement requires extra steps in thought. People who act as liabilities because "they directly adopt the behaviour that requires less effort", etc. - that is "uncivilized".
Awareness comes before the cultivation that is supposed to create it - before Borges' enraged "¡No saben lo que es un centauro!".
More complete theoretical and operational definitions could be given - but not here and now.
> Nordic countries got rid of cash payments for the most part, do you view those as uncivilized, then
Yes, certainly, absolutely. Things that evaluate as normal and acceptable to have their daily transactions recorded are clearly alien to developmental basics. It is unawareness of the sense of Dignity first, then of prudence (etc.) - and above them of the absurd.
> weird
"Weird" is "what happens", and what happens is that people live expressing larger and larger lacks of awareness about what is proper and what is not.
> With all that said it would be strange if they would be further, prosperity comes from hard work and discipline.
It must really suck for all of you living outside of Spain, looking at us taking naps and being "inefficient" with all our communism, yet we have health care, and work/life balance and have time enough for family and hobbies.
Of course, best is to just see it like there is no prosperity in the country, because there are no startup unicorns or billionaires buying up our media.
That is again an ignorant comment. Youth unemployment is 2nd highest among EU countries (<a href="https://www.destatis.de/Europa/EN/Topic/Population-Labour-Social-Issues/Labour-market/EULabourMarketCrisis.html" rel="nofollow">https://www.destatis.de/Europa/EN/Topic/Population-Labour-So...) and also Spain currently has a housing/property crisis.
You don’t need startup/billionaires to buy your media, but they are snatching up your land for sure.
every country has a housing/property crisis as a consequence of late stage capitalism.
You might find it odd that a communist country can suffer from late stage capitalism. That's because it isn't a communist country - hope this helps.
You don't know how hard is to maintain a country when you have to run in front of the bulls while making a paella at the same time you dance some flamenco./s
I guess that's your view of Spain, you should read and view things from more modern years than the 1950's. Also talk or Morocco and his allies USA and Israel about the immigrants that the mafia sent into Spain and Spain has never been communist or socialist, unless you don't what socialism and communism is.
According to GDP per capita, Spain is below Italy, but above Portugal. Has its position changed much over the last century? I would be interested to see a measure of that, but how far back is it feasible to estimate GDP per capita?
I don't know how Spain was affected by WW2, but they had a very nasty civil war just before WW2. I'm not sure if that's relevant to GDP per capita, though, because a war can sometimes improve the economy by leading to the overflow of a system in which progress is blocked by a relatively rich ruling class.
Spain was isolated due to it's political Allignment in the 40's, things changed a lot from 1954 on wards when they realized they had a friend in there now that the enemy was the USSR.
Spain was voluntarely isolated after Civil War because Franco and the Falange (read fascists) were obsessed with being self sufficient (autarchy). The thing was so extreme that there was smuggling of metals by foot (iron, tin, cooper...) from Portugal and France. But the autarchy was from Franco, and not a pressure against him. You can read about this here: <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Spain_(1939%E2%80%931959)" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Spain_(1939%E2%80%9...
The "magical" event that happened mid/late 1950's was that autarchy was still not working and the other main faction of the government (called technocrats, mainly the Opus Dei) said "the national catholicism is cool and all, but we need to get profits and this autarchy shit isn't working". So the autarchy ended to the Falange dismay, and the country slowly opened economically and started catching up with Europe.
Sadly Falange is on the rise again (falangist Buxadé from Vox cleaned the party from capitalists in the last couple of years), and you can hear young people calling for closing and going "Spain first" again.
>Shortly before the end of World War II and the later beginning of the Marshall Plan, President Roosevelt ordered the American ambassador in Madrid to inform Franco that any "political or economic aid" from the United States would be "impossible" as long as the dictator remained in power.
>The decision was ratified in August 1945 by a joint declaration of Stalin, Truman and Attlee. In February of the following year, France closed its border with Spain, leaving the country completely isolated. The UN asked all its members in December 1946 to retire their ambassadors from Spanish territory, and did not revoke its condemnatory declaration until 1950. Spain joined the UN in 1955
[...]
>The government protested against the isolation, stating that Spain had "the right to buy on international markets", and criticized the international community for sabotaging the country's "right to live according to its spiritual values"
>The Spanish international reputation would begin to improve gradually in the late 1940s and early 1950s, after the consolidation of the Cold War, due to the explicit interest of the United States in promoting anti-communist governments in Western Europe. The diplomatic displays of approval by the American government helped to strengthen the regime and stabilize its economy, which would eventually lead to the liberalization policies that marked the 1960s
Which is exactly what I said in my previous reply. Isolation FORCED by the international community (Franco fought against the USSR and Cold War wasn't established yet), they embraced it sure because they had no other choice. They could trade with Argentina (Franco-Peron protocol, signed in 1946)
The biggest problem nowadays is the focus on low-value industries like agriculture and tourism.
The Civil War and subsequent dictatorship help explain how the country ended up in this situation but I think people often focus on them too much rather than how to improve for the future.
Spain did not got hit by WW2 cause it was absolutely destroyed by a civil war beginning 1936. After that a dictatorship of 40 years and when it opened all industry got hit cause it was heavily protected and could not compete in open markets, add to that most of the working industries were cheaply sold to friends of the dictatorship who were, and some of them still are, in power positions.
> a distant sixth in economic size behind even Russia.
By what metric? Because Spain is sixth also by population, and I have the feeling you are using total GDP as scale. Using that, China is the richest economy, and India is the third richest country in the world. Meanwhile Switzerland and Singapore (really rich in reallity) are below 30th, and below Nigeria or Pakistan.
By per capita GDP we Spain are not even 6th, because Liechtenstein, Switzerland, Monaco, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Iceland, Ireland... are above us and also above Germany, UK or France.
> I certainly would rather live places like Mallorca or Donostia than in many places that are ahead of Spain in the silly GDP game
If I was making as much money as I would in those countries that are ahead I wouldn’t mind living in Spain either. Otherwise good luck getting a place to live on a tiny salary if you don’t have your relatives to support you.
You can still get arrested in spain for saying a joke about Luis Carrero Blanco being Spain's first astronaut.
Luis Carrero Blanco, was the fascist dictator Francisco Franco's right hand man, his car war blown several stories into the air by ETA freedom fighters, hence the joke.
Calling them freedom fighters is not knowing anything about them. Their first actions were stealing from banks and most of the victims happened after the dictatorship was over.
Not much. Back then it constantly murdered civilians (of many magnitudes lesser importance than Blanco) and generally had no concerns about collateral damage. It continued this for years after Franco was gone..
miohtama · · focus · HN ↗
1. Blocked Telegram with a court order, reinstituted after public backslash
2. Blocks Internet and Cloudflare during La Liga matches
3. Prime minister Pedro Sanchez from Spanish Socialist Workers’ Party (PSOE) has demanded the end of anonymity in Internet
They say it is to protect the kids, but likely it is to find out who watches La Liga without a premium subscription.
jimbob45 · · focus · HN ↗
guille_ · · focus · HN ↗
embedding-shape · · focus · HN ↗
But then again, discussing politics hardly ever gets less divisive here or elsewhere.
mdp2021 · · focus · HN ↗
Otherwise, there would be no divisiveness in fairly assessing measures in Economics.
lnsru · · focus · HN ↗
dotancohen · · focus · HN ↗
miohtama · · focus · HN ↗
dotancohen · · focus · HN ↗
mitxela · · focus · HN ↗
dotancohen · · focus · HN ↗
mitxela · · focus · HN ↗
tom-cat · · focus · HN ↗
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MentalM · · focus · HN ↗
Politicians? It is messages for the voters, and they are leftist politics (so their voters doesn't understand German)
mitxela · · focus · HN ↗
Germany is one of the more native-language-enforcing countries in Europe. I've been to Slovenia and half of everything is actually written in English, unlike Germany or France where everything's written in the local language.
fcatalan · · focus · HN ↗
bsoqk · · focus · HN ↗
fcatalan · · focus · HN ↗
[deleted] · · focus · HN ↗
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embedding-shape · · focus · HN ↗
tyre · · focus · HN ↗
miohtama · · focus · HN ↗
codedokode · · focus · HN ↗
sham1 · · focus · HN ↗
scamaltman2 · · focus · HN ↗
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mdp2021 · · focus · HN ↗
Countries grow in secondary matters and the primary ones (civilization) remain unattended.
And by the way, when something "grows fast", do not misunderstand the indicator... Ethiopia had a 13% annual growth recently; Guyana has a 16% annual growth at this time: you are not thinking that "life is good there" and "Miami videoclip vibes everywhere", right?
ricardobayes · · focus · HN ↗
However this has not been the case for Spain. Spain is deemed a full democracy by all objective and independent metrics. I am debating whether to even post this reply since your point to compare it to Ethiopia is so absurd you're likely not going to agree with facts. And yes, "life is good there", by also topping some, albeit, not objective quality of life metrics.
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index#List_by_country" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index#...
<a href="https://freedomhouse.org/explore-the-map?type=fiw&year=2026" rel="nofollow">https://freedomhouse.org/explore-the-map?type=fiw&year=2026
<a href="https://www.internations.org/expat-insider/2026/quality-of-life-2026" rel="nofollow">https://www.internations.org/expat-insider/2026/quality-of-l...
mdp2021 · · focus · HN ↗
We have just mentioned in the page that its federal administration tried to end cash and online anonimity. For example.
> a full democracy
And?! That very certainly does not equate with civilization.
> compare it to Ethiopia
You failed in understanding the post.
> [expats]
And since when an unvetted group could be taken as having judgement?
ricardobayes · · focus · HN ↗
mdp2021 · · focus · HN ↗
In context, the amount of awareness, and related cultivation, distributed in the population.
Among the signs I would check the perceived and tolerated pollution: light pollution, sound pollution etc. For example, the awareness of the importance of rest is basic (the awareness of the importance of health even more), so the perception and condemnation of background noise, especially in the night, is telling. A civilized country is one in which librarians speak with a proportionate, quiet voice, not one in which they chat loudly or speak loudly on loud ringing phones.
Around these parts in Europe (that the magazine The Atlantic revealed extend to the Americas) people are increasingly driving using blinding headlights: that is not just infra-human, but infra-animal: dogs are supposed to recognize a foul smell, birds are supposed to recognize disturbing noises, and if vision-based primates cannot recognize a bothersome light, they are spoilt and wasted.
Then of course you have the higher levels of awareness (good luck). For example, the awareness of what is licence vs what is freedom, the awareness that judgement requires extra steps in thought. People who act as liabilities because "they directly adopt the behaviour that requires less effort", etc. - that is "uncivilized".
Awareness comes before the cultivation that is supposed to create it - before Borges' enraged "¡No saben lo que es un centauro!".
More complete theoretical and operational definitions could be given - but not here and now.
> Nordic countries got rid of cash payments for the most part, do you view those as uncivilized, then
Yes, certainly, absolutely. Things that evaluate as normal and acceptable to have their daily transactions recorded are clearly alien to developmental basics. It is unawareness of the sense of Dignity first, then of prudence (etc.) - and above them of the absurd.
> weird
"Weird" is "what happens", and what happens is that people live expressing larger and larger lacks of awareness about what is proper and what is not.
kakacik · · focus · HN ↗
[dead]
embedding-shape · · focus · HN ↗
It must really suck for all of you living outside of Spain, looking at us taking naps and being "inefficient" with all our communism, yet we have health care, and work/life balance and have time enough for family and hobbies.
Of course, best is to just see it like there is no prosperity in the country, because there are no startup unicorns or billionaires buying up our media.
sajithdilshan · · focus · HN ↗
You don’t need startup/billionaires to buy your media, but they are snatching up your land for sure.
mitxela · · focus · HN ↗
You might find it odd that a communist country can suffer from late stage capitalism. That's because it isn't a communist country - hope this helps.
guydoom · · focus · HN ↗
ghostDancer · · focus · HN ↗
I guess that's your view of Spain, you should read and view things from more modern years than the 1950's. Also talk or Morocco and his allies USA and Israel about the immigrants that the mafia sent into Spain and Spain has never been communist or socialist, unless you don't what socialism and communism is.
[deleted] · · focus · HN ↗
[deleted]
bloak · · focus · HN ↗
I don't know how Spain was affected by WW2, but they had a very nasty civil war just before WW2. I'm not sure if that's relevant to GDP per capita, though, because a war can sometimes improve the economy by leading to the overflow of a system in which progress is blocked by a relatively rich ruling class.
fcatalan · · focus · HN ↗
FullMetalBitch · · focus · HN ↗
otherme123 · · focus · HN ↗
The "magical" event that happened mid/late 1950's was that autarchy was still not working and the other main faction of the government (called technocrats, mainly the Opus Dei) said "the national catholicism is cool and all, but we need to get profits and this autarchy shit isn't working". So the autarchy ended to the Falange dismay, and the country slowly opened economically and started catching up with Europe.
Sadly Falange is on the rise again (falangist Buxadé from Vox cleaned the party from capitalists in the last couple of years), and you can hear young people calling for closing and going "Spain first" again.
FullMetalBitch · · focus · HN ↗
>Shortly before the end of World War II and the later beginning of the Marshall Plan, President Roosevelt ordered the American ambassador in Madrid to inform Franco that any "political or economic aid" from the United States would be "impossible" as long as the dictator remained in power.
>The decision was ratified in August 1945 by a joint declaration of Stalin, Truman and Attlee. In February of the following year, France closed its border with Spain, leaving the country completely isolated. The UN asked all its members in December 1946 to retire their ambassadors from Spanish territory, and did not revoke its condemnatory declaration until 1950. Spain joined the UN in 1955
[...]
>The government protested against the isolation, stating that Spain had "the right to buy on international markets", and criticized the international community for sabotaging the country's "right to live according to its spiritual values"
>The Spanish international reputation would begin to improve gradually in the late 1940s and early 1950s, after the consolidation of the Cold War, due to the explicit interest of the United States in promoting anti-communist governments in Western Europe. The diplomatic displays of approval by the American government helped to strengthen the regime and stabilize its economy, which would eventually lead to the liberalization policies that marked the 1960s
Which is exactly what I said in my previous reply. Isolation FORCED by the international community (Franco fought against the USSR and Cold War wasn't established yet), they embraced it sure because they had no other choice. They could trade with Argentina (Franco-Peron protocol, signed in 1946)
schnitzelstoat · · focus · HN ↗
The Civil War and subsequent dictatorship help explain how the country ended up in this situation but I think people often focus on them too much rather than how to improve for the future.
ghostDancer · · focus · HN ↗
bsoqk · · focus · HN ↗
That is completely false.
otherme123 · · focus · HN ↗
By what metric? Because Spain is sixth also by population, and I have the feeling you are using total GDP as scale. Using that, China is the richest economy, and India is the third richest country in the world. Meanwhile Switzerland and Singapore (really rich in reallity) are below 30th, and below Nigeria or Pakistan.
By per capita GDP we Spain are not even 6th, because Liechtenstein, Switzerland, Monaco, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Iceland, Ireland... are above us and also above Germany, UK or France.
codedokode · · focus · HN ↗
surgical_fire · · focus · HN ↗
I certainly would rather live places like Mallorca or Donostia than in many places that are ahead of Spain in the silly GDP game.
Speaking of low IQ, it's pretty amusing to read that someone thinks that Spain came out unscathed from the events of 1930s and 1940s.
klrefg · · focus · HN ↗
If I was making as much money as I would in those countries that are ahead I wouldn’t mind living in Spain either. Otherwise good luck getting a place to live on a tiny salary if you don’t have your relatives to support you.
RobotToaster · · focus · HN ↗
Luis Carrero Blanco, was the fascist dictator Francisco Franco's right hand man, his car war blown several stories into the air by ETA freedom fighters, hence the joke.
LtdJorge · · focus · HN ↗
lomase · · focus · HN ↗
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mitxela · · focus · HN ↗
FullMetalBitch · · focus · HN ↗
<a href="https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Asesinatos_cometidos_por_ETA_desde_la_muerte_de_Francisco_Franco" rel="nofollow">https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Asesinatos_cometidos_por...
TitaRusell · · focus · HN ↗
klrefg · · focus · HN ↗
For instance the IRA was very mild and moderate by ETA standards.
FullMetalBitch · · focus · HN ↗
RobotToaster · · focus · HN ↗
klrefg · · focus · HN ↗
FullMetalBitch · · focus · HN ↗
miohtama · · focus · HN ↗
surgical_fire · · focus · HN ↗
torcete · · focus · HN ↗
mitxela · · focus · HN ↗
klrefg · · focus · HN ↗
MiroslavPokorny · · focus · HN ↗
MentalM · · focus · HN ↗
I think things start to go wrong for the Spain somewhere after the 16th century