Thread

1. timr · 1789830838 · focus · HN ↗

   All of the the research I have seen on this topic have been observational retrospective studies, which are worthless and should be ignored. The confounders on the group of people who are able to learn a second language (let alone a third or more) are so large that they cannot be overcome without a randomized control. This stuff is churnalism, right up there with "does coffee make you live longer?" [1].

   But, as someone who has now devoted a large portion of my life to becoming proficient at a second language, I do think there are benefits, even if they've never been proven. The most important of these, in my opinion, is just the social aspects of learning another language. You have to get out there and talk to people, and that's inherently healthy.

   I do want to say that you hear loads of pessimism about whether or not it's possible a language after childhood, etc., but I'm here to tell you that not only is it possible, it's possible to do even if you suck at languages (as I do). The primary factor is motivation, and the second biggest factor is time. Find a language that you like, because you like the culture you'll be interacting with when you speak it. If you don't, you'll never find the impetus to keep going when it gets hard and boring.

   [1] protip: drink coffee if you like it, and don't worry about it. Likewise, learn a language if you like it, not because some dumb article said it would make your neurons fluffier.

   1. outside1234 · 1789831392 · focus · HN ↗

      And it is only getting easier to learn a language now too. What FINALLY got me over the hump with Spanish was YouTube and discovering resources like Dreaming Spanish (leveled content for comprehensive input that probably exist in most major languages). Content that was fun and at my level.

      Mix into that a weekly lesson with italki from your home and you can learn any language at any age.

      1. timr · 1789832217 · focus · HN ↗

         There are so many tools now that didn't exist even when I started. I don't know how people managed without being able to use translation apps, for example. Or in the case of Japanese, being able to take a picture of text, and select the kanji for lookup. Life. Changing.

         I'm also old enough to remember when getting listening materials required going to the library for cassette tapes. Today, you can talk with a wide selection of native speakers, listen to essentially infinite audio and video content, and immerse yourself in a culture halfway around the world for the price of an internet connection.

         1. bonoboTP · 1789837610 · focus · HN ↗

            > I don't know how people managed without being able to use translation apps, for example.

            I learned English with no Internet or smartphones, just school teachers, coursebooks and physical dictionaries. I wrote down new words from the dictionary into my lined notebook with a pen, solved the exercises from the book, translated texts by looking up words in the dictionary, searching for the page and the entry alphabetically. The coursebook came with an audio cassette. It was very much possible, but of course there are much more tools today. Spaced repetition software like Anki for vocabulary learning is a huge improvement I think.

      2. light_cone · 1789893531 · focus · HN ↗

         I just logged in just to recommend Dreaming Spanish (and now Dreaming French apparently). It's absolutely the right way to learn a language IMO. If anyone reading this is lost on what resource to look for to learn Spanish or French, I urge you to try it. (Of course I have no interest here except see them succeed on this brilliant idea).
      3. sandrae · 1789902739 · focus · HN ↗

         I logged in just to second your recommendation. If you want to learn Spanish (or or French) 'Dreaming Spanish' is just excellent.

         In addition it seems to be a good way to get rid of short video addiction. I don't use instagram or tiktok myself, but have a friend who did. Now she watches Dreaming Spanish instead. She is eight month in. Her husband just told me the whole family was flabbergasted when they where in Spain this summer and she answered in Spanish to a waiter in a restaurant.

         My 10 year old daughter uses it, too. She likes to watch the Let's play videos and has watched the Stardew Valley series twice. So thats 66 hours x 2 = 130 hours watching Spanish videos. Her vocabulary is now a bit strange for a beginner, though. We recently walked through a garden and she was pointing out la regadera, la semilla, plantar algo.

   2. plastic3169 · 1789834742 · focus · HN ↗

      Learning another language is difficult, but never occured to me to think it would be somehow impossible to anyone. It might be that having english as your native language puts you in a uniquely difficult position as it is the default international language. World is getting smaller and people coming from smaller languages usually also learn the local international language as well. If you are born to family speaking estonian today you probably pick up also english or otherwise you spend your life surfing only estonian websites. It requires no special talent (although some people are fast at picking up new languages)

      1. timr · 1789838365 · focus · HN ↗

         I don’t know where you’re from, but if you’re European (it sounds like it?), you probably take for granted the head start you get by knowing multiple languages from childhood. Every European I meet has a comfort with language learning that I can only approximate with great effort.

         I agree with you about the disadvantage of being a native English speaker, but mostly I think the real disadvantage is being an American, and never having a reason to learn another language (though that has changed in my lifetime with Spanish, and possibly Mandarin).

         In any case, a lot of academic researchers claim that it’s impossible to learn a language to a native level as an adult, which may be true, but that claim has been twisted into “impossible to learn a second language” by a lot of others.

         1. bonoboTP · 1789839490 · focus · HN ↗

            > knowing multiple languages from childhood

            This is phrased ambiguously, but most Europeans only start learning foreign languages in school, so around age 6 or later. By that time you're past the "critical window" and you'll almost surely have a very recognizable accent and learning the language is very effortful and takes many years. It's still probably easier to learn when you're 7 than when you're 40, but it's not even close to language acquisition as a toddler.

            You're also forgetting that school-based language instruction is not so great at all. Imagine a class of 30 students having a 45 minute English class twice a week, by a non-native teacher with a heavy accent. It's not a lot of learning, very little speaking, and most kids unsurprisingly don't learn to speak well from that. It's mostly about memorizing grammar tables and vocabulary for tests.

            You need much more intensive paid courses or private instruction if you really want to be good at it, even as a teenager. Not strictly necessary but learning purely from public school is usually not as effective as you seem to think. Or you have to be an outlier in diligence and do a LOT of homework practice on your own, translating, reading, writing, listening to media etc. Video games can be a great motivator but it also gives a very lopsided skillset and won't easily get you to pass a B2 or C1 exam.

            And yes, it's true. For Americans learning a foreign language is an exotic hobby or a requirement of some very rare foreign-associated jobs. For people whose native language isn't English, learning English is just part of the basics for professional work. It's around the same level in basicness as getting an undergrad degree. Certainly not something that every single person does, and there are jobs you can do without it, but white collar, professional knowledge work will require it.

            In most European countries you also have to learn a second foreign language at school at some point, though not as many years as the first foreign language. This one is usually the language of a big nearby European country, so German, French, Italian or Spanish are popular. But just as it is for Americans, learning this second, non-English foreign language is much less motivating once you know English. Though economic motivations do exist, for example to learn German, especially when you live close to the DACH (Germany, Austria, Switzerland) countries and there are many economic ties.

            1. timr · 1789893466 · focus · HN ↗

               I'm not European, so all I can do is shrug. Obviously there are tons of people in Europe and they're not all identical, but my observation is that compared to me, they're more comfortable with the inherent ambiguity of not being able to understand everything in a language, and still being able to function in that language.

               I think Europeans, in general, are much more comfortable with the idea of just making due with whatever language is available, at whatever level, where as for Americans, speaking a foreign language is much more of an event, with more ego tied into it. The fear of failure is amplified, and that fear is a huge reason that more people don't try to learn.

               Maybe I'm just seeing a self-selected group of Europeans who are already multi-lingual, and it's not childhood exposure at all, but my theory is that the normality of language learning in Europe is a causative factor.

               1. bonoboTP · 1789895113 · focus · HN ↗

                  > Maybe I'm just seeing a self-selected group of Europeans

                  This. You chat much less with people who are too shy to chat in English. Believe me, many Europeans don't like to speak foreign languages because they think they will seem stupid. It's not some deep difference between Americans and Europeans. The major difference is simply that there is much more pressure and incentive involved when your native language is not English.

      2. robocat · 1789851739 · focus · HN ↗

         > It might be that having english as your native language puts you in a uniquely difficult position

         Personally I suspect English has some great advantages. The main disadvantage is defaulting to superiority.

         The natural disconnect between written and spoken English is tremendously helpful. Well educated English encourages copying sounds - pronouncing foreign names and places correctly. This is a huge leg up compared against some other cultures. Think sports stars having their foreign names pronounced correctly. People often know how to try and say Paris or Barcelona correctly. We naturally know that how something is spoken trumps how it is written.

         English speakers often have the ability to hear sounds because there's so many wildly different English accents. Especially vowels (we natively use a wide range of vowel sounds). There are sounds English speakers struggle to hear, but I think we have an advantage over some other languages.

         If you're the type of person that attempts to mimic accents, then you've often learnt how to say a huge range of vowels and consonants. And how to stretch them (Strine, some US accents) or shorten them.

   3. watwut · 1789838949 · focus · HN ↗

      > The confounders on the group of people who are able to learn a second language

      Unless you have large learning disorder, you can learn second language. It is not some kind of rare talent

   4. TFNA · 1789847498 · focus · HN ↗

      I am an actual linguist, in a subfield that requires me to continually learn new languages, and there are no social benefits. I definitely don't get out there. Once one is a man over the age of 40 or so, local people are rarely willing to talk to you at any length, you are not interesting any more (in fact, in some cultures, local people will have heightened suspicion of you). Language learning becomes more a passive endeavour with few opportunities for real-world speaking.

      1. etrautmann · 1789849013 · focus · HN ↗

         What? Come on. I’m on that demographic and have zero issues talking to people out in the world. If you believe this then certainly it’s true. Otherwise, just go meet and interact with people normally.
      2. nchmy · 1789906134 · focus · HN ↗

         This is either a problem with you, or a problem with the specific place you live in.

         I talk to people every day in my 2nd language. They are generally delighted to do so.

         Yes, some people are suspicious of me, depending on the context. But even then I can generally disarm it with body language etc, because I'm a skilled and empathetic human.

         1. TFNA · 1789925131 · focus · HN ↗

            Your post history suggests your sole personal experience is Spanish. Congratulations, you lucked out learning the language of speakers more likely to be friendly and sociable than not (though there are corners of Latin America colder than others). But that experience will not be representative of many other languages spoken by other peoples.

            1. nchmy · 1789940560 · focus · HN ↗

               You made a blanket statement about being a man over 40 makes it impossible to converse with people. I refuted that. Would you like to revise it to say "I happen to be in a place(s) where people are just generally anti-social, so that makes it difficult to practice a language"?

               1. TFNA · 1789941440 · focus · HN ↗

                  Since my late teens, I have spent ~6 months a year traveling the world, and language learning has been a big part of that. And now I am in my 40s having seen how, in most regions, interest from locals in intensive conversation steadily diminished as I approached middle age. So, my experience has been comprehensive enough to make such a blanket statement.

                  1. nchmy · 1789958450 · focus · HN ↗

                     When you are "home", do you have the same problem? I wonder if people are becoming less social overall?

                     I also wonder if it is something that happens for women as well, or just men.

      3. popularonion · 1789909050 · focus · HN ↗

         In my experience you are quite right. Don’t let the shaming replies here get you down.
   5. robocat · 1789849756 · focus · HN ↗

      > social aspects of learning another language

      Maybe if you are near the native speaking country, or potentially if there are significant numbers of immigrants.

      But knowing Spanish adds nothing social within New Zealand.

      I had a Spanish girlfriend when 30, which made learning Spanish rather incentivised, and I embedded overseas for many months to learn conversational Spanish.

      However I rarely hang out with South American immigrants in New Zealand, and those I have met (say at the pub) often prefer to stick with English.

      Knowing Spanish is fantastic when travelling - the months spent learning have led to way more enjoyment when subsequently travelling to South America or visiting friends in Spain. Spanish also helps a little in France, Italy, Portugal and Brazil.

      I intend to spend a few months in South Korea so maybe I'll try and learn Korean (without a girlfriend). However I'm now older so I suspect it will be much much harder.

   6. MrDrMcCoy · 1789877135 · focus · HN ↗

      Confounding to learning language, on top of one's base ability to do do in general, are the teaching methods not meshing at all with the individual. For me, rote memorization of anything is nearly impossible, doubly so if the thing to be memorized has no immediate utility. "Conversational" language learning and similar that give you a bunch of vocabulary and bring in the grammar later are why I failed Spanish 1 three times. I need the grammar first, then words with etymology. It also helps to not fight with phonetic collisions between different languages using their own bastardization of Latin script, which is why I was far more easily able to meet my college language requirement by teaching myself classical Greek and translating the things I thought were interesting.

      1. nchmy · 1789906007 · focus · HN ↗

         This is fascinating to me, because I am adamant that learning grammar (and especially verb conjugation) is completely counter productive when starting to learn a language. Especially with Spanish, where every tense and person has different terminations.

         I literally just ignored conjugation and spoke in infinitive for a while.

         Yo comer pan. Tu comer pan. Ayer/mañana el comer pan. Etc...

         Likewise not worrying about gender, articles etc. If you use the wrong el/la/lo/les/whatever, it almost never matters, whatsoever.

         Likewise if you put words in the wrong order.

         Everyone understands it all.

         So, just focus on building vocab, fluidity and confidence. The tenses come in time.

         I do agree, though, that etymology - or at least noticing similarities between languages - can be very useful. Spanish and English speakers already know thousands of words in each language just with some basic rules. -al is the same (metal). -tion becomes -cion (conversation, conversación). Etc...

         I suspect that your struggles was that you were being evaluated on the wrong things...

         I'd be curious to hear your experience and what you think of what I've said.

         1. MrDrMcCoy · 1789964919 · focus · HN ↗

            I think you're probably right where most people are concerned, but none of that held for me in my various attempts. I think I should amend a couple of the points I raised, though:

            I wrote etymology when I meant morphology. Etymology is certainly useful to me and helps vocabulary stick, but I find morphology to be a useful building block that I need on the front-end of learning vocabulary. No curriculum I've found includes it.

            Phonetic collisions were particularly difficult for me, as my early education intrinsically bound phonetics to the English alphabet in my mind, which made it very difficult for my memory to latch onto new associations that share Latin script. I think phonics are crucial, but I wish there was a good way to better steer the sound associations to morphemes instead of individual characters, so as to better make room for more than the one language you're trying to learn.

            New point: I had already done some programming by the time I tried learning another language. My thought processes had already reshaped into a sort of compiler for all my language processing. The necessary precision of code extended into how I wrote, and that overinflated the importance of grammar into something I just couldn't see past before getting to the words themselves. I wanted the words that were useful to sentence structure ahead of all others so I could do something useful with the rest.

            I expect this would all be pretty incomprehensible to most people.

Unofficial Hacker News client; not affiliated with Y Combinator.