Thread

1. carefree-bob · 1789760305 · focus · HN ↗

   There was a book in the 1970s called "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind" by Julian Jaynes, where he argued that ancient civilizations -- and he used examples from Homer -- lacked the current modern sense of self-consciousness. If you look at their behavior, they interact with some external divine voice that drives their actions, whereas if you read modern literature you see people being driven by an inner voice which they associate with themselves.

   This shift from the &quot;bicameral mentality&quot; of the external voice to the modern mentality of the inner voice was hypothesized by Jaynes to be rooted in some biological changes in the brain. At the time there was split brain research that showed these two parts of the brain function independently almost as two different minds in the same skull. See this 2007 survey: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.researchgate.net&#x2F;publication&#x2F;6323702_The_bicameral_mind30_years_on_A_critical_reappraisal_of_Julian_Jaynes&#x27;_hypothesis" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.researchgate.net&#x2F;publication&#x2F;6323702_The_bicamer...

   1. crooked-v · 1789760851 · focus · HN ↗

      &gt; they interact with some external divine voice that drives their actions

      ...in a specific region, in a specific time period, immediately before the economic and then societal crash of the eastern Mediterranean that changed culture in the region forever.

      The hypothesis breaks down pretty hard when you realize he just kind of handwaves away people in the rest of the world not having any kind of abrupt cut-over in the styles of recorded literature that forms the backbone of his arguments.

      1. ViktorRay · 1789761037 · focus · HN ↗

         Are you sure about this? If you look at the ancient stories in India you can similar phenomena

         1. carefree-bob · 1789761237 · focus · HN ↗

            Yes, Jaynes used a comprehensive approach, albeit one rooted in literature. I only threw in &quot;Homer&quot; as an example to be clear that &quot;ancient civilizations&quot; referred to bronze age and before, and that this was not the Joe Rogan kind of ancient civilizations.
         2. glenstein · 1789767539 · focus · HN ↗

            I think the trouble is once your category is loosey-goosey enough it could be open-ended to the point that anything can fit it.

            The fact that overall of recorded history you can find instances of any sort of interaction with something that&#x27;s felt to be a voice that&#x27;s independent from one&#x27;s own subjectivity is open-ended to the point that it can fit the literary and cultural history of basically any civilization on Earth.

            What would be more impressive is some additional specificity, any sort of evolutionary mechanism, and any sort of supporting biological data. Otherwise the thing that is being described here isn&#x27;t a theory, it&#x27;s barely even vibes. This is to vibes what vibes are to coherently formed thoughts.

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