> In either case I believe people who can put AI to the most value are the mathematicians themselves
The net output of math will increase, and mathematicians have more work now to unravel all this, and make it useful. AI plays the role of a monkey in the infinite monkey theorem [1]. We now need an LLM corollary - Something like: A finite number of LLM agents will almost surely find all theorems given an infinite token budget.
It's impossible for finite number of LLMs to solve all theorems. This would imply that the busy beaver sequence is computable which implies the halting problem is decidable.
For any finite program (eg some LLMs), there is a true math theorem which they cannot prove or disprove (given fixed input of the statement with no other information sources). If that weren’t true, BB would be computable.
Math is beyond computation. Since AI is just bits in bits out, it has this fundamental limitation.
Any magic of AI systems comes from the transformed meaning of its input data. With fixed weights any LLM is just an artifact. For example a human prompting an LLM constitutes an extra information source, which removes the above limitations. In theory any input from the natural world would remove the limitations too. The natural world is a black box and we don't know what kind of meaning or intelligence could underly it.
We are talking about the same thing, but I would actually put this the other way around.
Computation and computability is "the final frontier". Math is a "subset" of that. Doesn't matter if we choose ZFC or in the future discover some "better" subset of core axioms, we will always hit limits where BB will trivially skip over whatever we could prove (let alone Gödel's theorems).
> given fixed input of the statement with no other information sources
Also, this is just trivially avoidable, so not sure if we really should be concerned about this limitation. An LLM in a loop where it can write on a tape can be Turing complete, ergo it can compute anything computable and is "bigger" than math at that point.
> Computation and computability is "the final frontier". Math is a "subset" of that.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you point, but I don't know how widely this would be held as true. Are you defining "math" as _only_ what can be proven under some particular formal system?
Well, I only know how to define computability in terms of Turing machines.
For math I don't have a fix definition, but it's surely a bit more specific than that (e.g. I wouldn't consider the computation that prints a 0 at the same place for infinity math) - but of course I do see the circularity in my argument: a Turing machine is a mathematical object in and of itself. Though being able to talk about something doesn't necessarily change which is "bigger".
As for the other direction, this gets a bit more into the philosophy behind math itself. Constructive math's territory is "easy" - but I am on the opinion that if humans (or any intelligent physical entity) are at most Turing-complete [1], then any non-constructive math "steps" or thoughts must also be at most computable. Well, unfortunately I can't prove whether math done by transcendent entities are also computable, though.
In any case, I am no mathematician, so whatever I think regarding this topic may not have much relevance to anyone, only done CS course with quite a bit of math, but that's obviously not the same.
[1] I believe religion is an escape hatch here from an argument perspective
> if humans (or any intelligent physical entity) are at most Turing-complete
This is a bit of a strange assumption to make. I do agree that a human, if it had infinite memory, would be an universal machine, i.e. capable of computing any given Turing machine [0]. But would that be the limits of its capabilities? It's far from certain.
You'll get into the philosophy of free will (funnily enough, a sort of inverted Turing test), i.e. for a given human with infinite memory, is there a Turing machine that exactly replicates the behavior of that human? Is our behavior governed entirely by rules? Would that imply that a human themselves is a kind of Chinese room [1]?
> any non-constructive math "steps" or thoughts must also be at most computable.
What does it mean for a "thought" to be computable? Compare to Gödel's incompleteness theorem. Clearly the act of stating the thought, or writing down the theorem, is computable. But proving it to be true or false may very well be impossible.
> What does it mean for a "thought" to be computable?
Well, given our scientific knowledge it's a molecule-level (only important to disregard quantum physics to make the case easier) physical/chemical process, that we should in principle be able to simulate on any other medium, including a Turing machine.
Nonetheless, I can accept the definition of math where it's about "truths" and truths can obviously exist without being computable.
bwfan123 · · focus · HN ↗
The net output of math will increase, and mathematicians have more work now to unravel all this, and make it useful. AI plays the role of a monkey in the infinite monkey theorem [1]. We now need an LLM corollary - Something like: A finite number of LLM agents will almost surely find all theorems given an infinite token budget.
[1] <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_monkey_theorem" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_monkey_theorem
srcreigh · · focus · HN ↗
For any finite program (eg some LLMs), there is a true math theorem which they cannot prove or disprove (given fixed input of the statement with no other information sources). If that weren’t true, BB would be computable.
Math is beyond computation. Since AI is just bits in bits out, it has this fundamental limitation.
Any magic of AI systems comes from the transformed meaning of its input data. With fixed weights any LLM is just an artifact. For example a human prompting an LLM constitutes an extra information source, which removes the above limitations. In theory any input from the natural world would remove the limitations too. The natural world is a black box and we don't know what kind of meaning or intelligence could underly it.
gf000 · · focus · HN ↗
We are talking about the same thing, but I would actually put this the other way around.
Computation and computability is "the final frontier". Math is a "subset" of that. Doesn't matter if we choose ZFC or in the future discover some "better" subset of core axioms, we will always hit limits where BB will trivially skip over whatever we could prove (let alone Gödel's theorems).
> given fixed input of the statement with no other information sources
Also, this is just trivially avoidable, so not sure if we really should be concerned about this limitation. An LLM in a loop where it can write on a tape can be Turing complete, ergo it can compute anything computable and is "bigger" than math at that point.
magicalist · · focus · HN ↗
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you point, but I don't know how widely this would be held as true. Are you defining "math" as _only_ what can be proven under some particular formal system?
gf000 · · focus · HN ↗
For math I don't have a fix definition, but it's surely a bit more specific than that (e.g. I wouldn't consider the computation that prints a 0 at the same place for infinity math) - but of course I do see the circularity in my argument: a Turing machine is a mathematical object in and of itself. Though being able to talk about something doesn't necessarily change which is "bigger".
As for the other direction, this gets a bit more into the philosophy behind math itself. Constructive math's territory is "easy" - but I am on the opinion that if humans (or any intelligent physical entity) are at most Turing-complete [1], then any non-constructive math "steps" or thoughts must also be at most computable. Well, unfortunately I can't prove whether math done by transcendent entities are also computable, though.
In any case, I am no mathematician, so whatever I think regarding this topic may not have much relevance to anyone, only done CS course with quite a bit of math, but that's obviously not the same.
[1] I believe religion is an escape hatch here from an argument perspective
streetfighter64 · · focus · HN ↗
This is a bit of a strange assumption to make. I do agree that a human, if it had infinite memory, would be an universal machine, i.e. capable of computing any given Turing machine [0]. But would that be the limits of its capabilities? It's far from certain.
You'll get into the philosophy of free will (funnily enough, a sort of inverted Turing test), i.e. for a given human with infinite memory, is there a Turing machine that exactly replicates the behavior of that human? Is our behavior governed entirely by rules? Would that imply that a human themselves is a kind of Chinese room [1]?
> any non-constructive math "steps" or thoughts must also be at most computable.
What does it mean for a "thought" to be computable? Compare to Gödel's incompleteness theorem. Clearly the act of stating the thought, or writing down the theorem, is computable. But proving it to be true or false may very well be impossible.
[0] <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Turing_machine" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Turing_machine [1] <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room
gf000 · · focus · HN ↗
Well, given our scientific knowledge it's a molecule-level (only important to disregard quantum physics to make the case easier) physical/chemical process, that we should in principle be able to simulate on any other medium, including a Turing machine.
Nonetheless, I can accept the definition of math where it's about "truths" and truths can obviously exist without being computable.