Thread

1. burnt-resistor · 1789889300 · focus · HN ↗

   This isn't really a viable technology because it requires careful invasive chemical injection into risky cell chemistries. Generally, liquid electrolyte and plastic separator NMC, LFP, and LiPo should be banned for all but hobby uses when far safer solid state cells with ceramic separators exist such as those offered by ProLogium. NMC are extremely dangerous under deflagration, and LFP create huge amounts of colorless and odorless hydrogen gas that has already blown up many improperly engineered buildings that used them and assumed they were "safe". Real solid state electrolyte chemistries tend to have much slower passivation growth than liquid chemistries.

   1. Tade0 · 1789905778 · focus · HN ↗

      > and LFP create huge amounts of colorless and odorless hydrogen gas

      Lead-acid batteries do that while being charged, so it's an engineering problem to solve, not some insurmountable challenge.

      1. SoftTalker · 1789923262 · focus · HN ↗

         I'd think that the hydrogen, being much lighter than air, will accumulate at the highest point in the room. Just be sure you have a vent there?

         1. rcostin2k2 · 1789924131 · focus · HN ↗

            An so, soon you'll be able to put a hydrogen cell into the system ...
         2. Tade0 · 1789927301 · focus · HN ↗

            Maybe. GP's comment about LFP is highly strange to me, as this type of batteries already passes the puncture test.

            Li-poly, which are in just about every electronic device, on the other hand...

            1. burnt-resistor · 1789979004 · focus · HN ↗

               Most LFP cells deflagrate under puncture releasing invisible copious hydrogen gas that may or may not ignite.

               <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;07BS6QY3wI8" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;07BS6QY3wI8

               <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;pdfs.semanticscholar.org&#x2F;f9f4&#x2F;681cf6d36adc72ae643555e198ca78df1caa.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;pdfs.semanticscholar.org&#x2F;f9f4&#x2F;681cf6d36adc72ae643555...

               LiPo packs are rarely used in consumer electronics, they&#x27;re mostly used in toys and drones as individual pouch packs. NMC is the most common battery chemistry used in consumer electronics. You might be confused because NMC is available in packaging including prismatic, pouch, and cylindrical configurations.

         3. burnt-resistor · 1789978877 · focus · HN ↗

            No, that&#x27;s improper flammable gas management. Constant igniters need to be close enough to all cells to be effective in preventing the creation of a confined space bomb.

            <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;6LbBryib8yY" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;6LbBryib8yY

            <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;JWBt6nv8U58" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;JWBt6nv8U58

      2. burnt-resistor · 1789978566 · focus · HN ↗

         &gt; Lead-acid batteries do that while being charged

         Apples and oranges strawman. In very small quantities that can be managed by simply dumping it overboard using small diameter tubing.

         Watch the StacheD YT channel about the structures blown up by deflagrating LFP packs because they lacked constant igniters like Megapacks. Also, the Moss Landing LFP fire reignited after 20 months. LFP aren&#x27;t anywhere close to &quot;safe&quot;, they&#x27;re just relatively safer compared to NMC.

         1. Tade0 · 1789981107 · focus · HN ↗

            So it is an engineering problem after all.

            I watched the clip and the youtuber himself says the facility was poorly designed and should not have been built at all.

            I&#x27;ve read ProLogium&#x27;s press release when it came out and while their progress is impressive, I don&#x27;t see their batteries making it to grid storage anytime soon. For one, they don&#x27;t have the production capacity yet.

            My bet is that for the time being it&#x27;s cheaper to just build facilities with good fire prevention measures than have a technology which is just scaling up take over right now.

         2. ZeroGravitas · 1789990807 · focus · HN ↗

            I think Moss Landing was NMC as it was an older battery site.

            These scientists are monitoring the impact on a local wildlife and are finding Nickel, Manganese and Cobalt traces:

            <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;elkhornslough.org&#x2F;reserve&#x2F;research&#x2F;moss-landing-battery-fire&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;elkhornslough.org&#x2F;reserve&#x2F;research&#x2F;moss-landing-batt...

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