Thread

1. wolframhempel · 1789739488 · focus · HN ↗

   I'm perfectly happy to believe that the United States has an awareness of itself in the abstract sense that its a complex system with emerging behaviors that are feedbackloops of itself. I'm also convinced that all mammals and most sea and air creatures have consciousness in this as well as the more general sense.

   To me, the fact that an awareness of one self exists isn't particularly stunning - what's stunning to me is that we believe it is something incredibly special and we are the only ones endowed with it.

   I think this assumption comes from the same human self confidence that decided it was the only thing "created in gods image" in the universe and so on...

   1. somenameforme · 1789742453 · focus · HN ↗

      I think it's more that humans have put a man on the Moon, whereas we're highly impressed with other animals when they are capable of doing something productive with a twig or make gestures or noises that can be reasonably interpreted as some form of simple communication.

      The point of that is that humans obviously are exceptionally special relative to absolutely everything else we know in this universe. And while consciousness and intelligence are two different concepts, it's not unreasonable to think things which are 'natural' for a human are anything but for other species.

      1. nvme0n1p1 · 1789752082 · focus · HN ↗

         It's no surprise humans are most impressed by human-ish things, selfish as they are. But I bet a chimpanzee would be highly impressed with you if you could survive even a single day in the jungle.

         > doing something productive with a twig

         or if you could climb a simple tree

         > noises that can be reasonably interpreted as some form of simple communication

         Do you think most animals just... never communicate? Why does it have to be something dumbed down enough that humans can interpret it? I bet a dog would be impressed with you if you could emit a scent that can be reasonably interpreted as some form of simple communication.

         > The point of that is that humans obviously are exceptionally special

         Not really. They're squishy and weak and quite fragile. Tardigrades are the only exceptional lifeform in this galactic neighborhood.

         1. PaulHoule · 1789754808 · focus · HN ↗

            A day in the jungle is easy to survive, a year less so.

            I don’t know a lot about dogs but cats have specialized scent communication mechanisms that are entirely outside the human range. I mean they tend to leave a streak of ‘cat oil’ around their feeding areas when they rub their cheeks on corners. I stick my nose right into the gland and I sense nothing but the soft touch of fur.

            On the other hand we do share many languages with cats including general mammal body language (“pointing” at things) as well as what we negotiate, like the yowling cats learn to get our attention.

         2. somenameforme · 1789801701 · focus · HN ↗

            These are hardly human-ish things. The reason they're found novel is because their behaviors that demonstrate some basic degree of interaction with the world or each other, outside of pure instinct. And by the standards of most animals, that's impressive. But by the standards of any sort of intelligent being, including humans, these actions are quite absurdly trivial. But for instance if and when we encounter an alien intelligence, it's fairly certain that they will have achieved many of the things that humans have. In fact that will be largely a prerequisite to encountering them.

            And no a chimp would not be impressed to find tribes of humans living in the forest for millennia, as is already the case. They lack the higher order thinking in order to have such a feeling. If they had it then impression naturally gives way to 'hmmm I wonder if I could do that' and the next thing you know, you'd have chimps on the Moon. Suffice to say, that's not happening now, or ever.

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