Thread

1. kleton · 1789709109 · focus · HN ↗

   > because the Proto-Indo-European language arose in the landlocked steppes, it had no need for—and has no securely reconstructable word for—‘sea’.

   No, it is mori, attested in marine, muir, maryadah, mal, morje, etc in farflung IE tongues today.

   1. TFNA · 1789709548 · focus · HN ↗

      There are decades of scholarship on those cognates, and a longstanding view that in Proto-Indo-European the word meant simply "large body of water" and not specifically "sea". Moreover, it may be a substrate word borrowed into European IE languages, as the affinity of that Sanskrit word to this cognate set is not very certain.

      1. medvidek · 1789710815 · focus · HN ↗

         You can see the same with the word "sea". Its German equivalent See still mainly means "lake", even though in some fixed expressions it can be translated as "sea" (e.g. Nordsee, Ostsee).

         1. Lutzb · 1789714530 · focus · HN ↗

            Der See - the lake

            Die See - the ocean

            1. Basje · 1789718665 · focus · HN ↗

               As a Dutch person, we were taught German in secondary school and Meer/See were the textbook example of false friends:

               het meer - der See - the lake

               de zee - das Meer - the sea

               I don't remember being taught "die See" but I also dropped my German course after one year (which I now regret). Anyway, I always thought this was an interesting development in our languages.

               1. samus · 1789749667 · focus · HN ↗

                  "die See" refers to the sea in general, not to a specific body of water, unless it is part of a name, like "Nordsee".

                  The English word "sea" is also sometimes used in this sense, but it's less apparent since "the" carries no gender: "He liked living close to the sea." - doesn't really refer to a specific sea or ocean even though the definite article has been used. (I'm happy to be corrected if this is an ungrammatical sentence since I'm not a native English speaker)

         2. niemandhier · 1789718917 · focus · HN ↗

            I remember reading that, in middlelow German the meanings were swapped “See” meaning the ocean and “Meer” meaning large body of standing water.

            That’s probably why the lake is called “Steinhuder Meer”.

            In low German the word for ocean still is “See”.

            1. nephihaha · 1789727500 · focus · HN ↗

               The word "mere" in English is pretty uncommon but tends to refer to small bodies of water.

               1. mr_toad · 1789733736 · focus · HN ↗

                  There are dozens of lakes in England, and a few in other english speaking countries with the word mere in their name.

                  1. nephihaha · 1789742281 · focus · HN ↗

                     Hence I said "pretty uncommon'. Windermere is the most prominent example but is often called Lake Windermere. There is also Fowlmere nature reserve.

                     Definitely not the most common name for inland bodies of water by a country mile though. "Pond", "pool", and "lake" are more common.

                     1. saispas · 1789757746 · focus · HN ↗

                        I read your post, and it got me thinking because, round here in Cheshire,v'mere' is a very common name for a bigger stretch of water ('pool' is generally reserved for smaller stretches of water).

                        So I did a quick search to check, both from memory and by looking at the map – not because I doubted you being right in general across the UK, but because locally 'mere' is so common.

                        Anyway, towns or bodies of water with 'Mere' in Cheshire: Mere, Mere Heath, Ellesmere Port, Blakemere, Delamere, Oakmere, Tatton Mere, Comber Mere, Pickmere, Manley Mere, Shakerly Mere, Marbury (means 'Fortified town by the lake'), Marbury Big Mere, the Quoisley Meres, Flaxmere, Hatchmere, Radnor Mere, Astbury Mere, Rossmere, Rostherne Mere, Nunsmere, The Mere, Little Mere… and then I got bored, so I may have missed a couple. Anyway, that's at least 23, and Cheshire is not a noticeably watery place, compared to some other counties.

                        In contrast, there are very few lakes: I could find Oulton Park Lake (man-made in the late 18th Century), and Acre Nook Lake, Lapwing Hall Lake, and another unnamed one – a series of quarry pits turned into a watersports centre in the 2010s.

                        So it looks like that in Cheshire at least, the normal name for a 'larger than a pond' body of water or nearby town is 'mere'.

                        Thanks for sending me down this interesting (well, to me, anyway) rabbit hole…

                        1. nephihaha · 1789804609 · focus · HN ↗

                           I don't know of a single "mere" in Scotland or Ireland. I doubt there are any in Wales... Maybe in the eastern bits that are less Welsh speaking. I'm surprised about Cheshire. Maybe it is more widespread than I thought it was! But it isn't a word I hear used in spoken in English outside of place names.

                           Some of it is regional. "Tarn" turns up in the Danelaw. "Lough" turns up in the far north of England for about twenty place names, which is a variant of "loch", but is pronounced "luff". You can find some "loughs" near Hadrian's Wall.

                           1. saispas · 1789821069 · focus · HN ↗

                              You wouldn’t really expect many in Wales itself, because ‘mere’ is from the Old English. There are a few in Shropshire (including Ellesmere – the other end of the never-built Ellesmere canal on its way to Ellesmere Port) and there are some in the Fens and elsewhere. Apparently, there are a couple in Wales – near Wrexham and in Pembrokeshire. (I got this from <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Mere_(lake)…" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Mere_(lake)…).

                              I suspect there’s a Mercian link here somewhere…

         3. embedding-shape · 1789725113 · focus · HN ↗

            Yeah, my mother tongue is similar, &quot;sea&quot; and &quot;ocean&quot; has the exact same word, so of course when I speak English I accidentally call a bunch of seas for oceans instead.

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