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I hate you Microsoft

149 points · 80 comments · henriquenunez

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commandersaki · 1789681788 · focus · HN ↗
massgrave
1. armadyl · 1789682144 · focus · HN ↗
  Alright this post can go ahead and be marked as completed its all that needs to be said
TutleCpt · 1789682136 · focus · HN ↗
I also hate Microsoft.
1. hosel · 1789682521 · focus · HN ↗
  What they did to windows is criminal. I honestly cannot believe the state of windows 11. I will never work a job again where I have to use windows.
  1. jbubimon · 1789683702 · focus · HN ↗
    Criminal behaviour is in Windows’ very DNA. Microsoft openly taking advantage of its customers and treating them like cattle is perfectly on brand for them. Always has been. Always will be. Windows and Office only gained traction via nefarious acts on Microsoft’s part and now we live in a world where Microsoft is relevant.
    Criminal all the way down.
  2. tombert · 1789684349 · focus · HN ↗
    It's a soft line in the sand for me as well.
    If a job pays really really well, then sure I will run Windows, but short of that I'm going to opt for Mac, or I'm going to try and figure out a way to replace the Windows with a Linux.
  3. fooker · 1789686152 · focus · HN ↗
    The version of windows you get for software development at a company that needs windows for software development is pretty good, no sign of any adware or bloatware, no phoning home, no sus telemetry or updates forced by microsoft.
vondur · 1789682158 · focus · HN ↗
It looks like your license only allows for the web version, so your university probably isn't spending that much for it. You'd get the same message on Windows too.
1. nrub · 1789682815 · focus · HN ↗
  I think this overlooks the full picture. It's not about the this one pin prick relating to their license. It's that working with Microsoft in any capacity is filled with paper cuts like this, annoyances, bad design, and overt errors. Every single day.
  They're a User hostile company and they make a buck by doing just enough to convince non-experts to keep their enterprise licenses.
  1. internet101010 · 1789683143 · focus · HN ↗
    Windows 11 has been out for like 6 years and they still haven't fixed a major File Explorer bug: after a few minutes of File Explorer being open the menu bar for the old File Explorer pops up underneath the new thing that replace the menu bar; none of the buttons on this weird artifact from the past work. It's just there. Re-open File Explorer and it goes away, until a few minutes later and it re-appears.
    Not as noticeable on light mode but a constant distracting reminder about how much Microslop sucks on dark mode.
    WalterBright · 1789683664 · focus · HN ↗
    Should have stayed with Windows 7!
  2. bunderbunder · 1789683681 · focus · HN ↗
    Though, that's true of every single Microsoft-sized B2B-focused company I've ever encountered, as well as the one I once worked at.
    I honestly would not attribute it to malice. I would attribute it to the scale of the company and the nature of the business they're in. A behemoth this size naturally has the "left hand doesn't know what the right one is doing" problem on an unfathomable scale simply because it's far too big for any one person to keep track of more than a small fraction of everything.
    And then throw on top of it that they have a whole bunch of enterprise clients who can exert an incredible amount of pressure on individual decision makers. And there will never, ever be a Steve Jobs like figure who's willing to help them hold the line against that in the name of a sensible and coherent overall product vision because maintaining a sensible and coherent overall product vision does not generate positive ROI for this kind of company. Microsoft tried to have one several times during its "envious of Apple" days and every time the enterprise customers who actually supply their revenue responded by swatting them on the nose with a rolled up newspaper.
    ghusto · 1789728491 · focus · HN ↗
    Both are true. At a certain point, choosing to do the bear minimum when you know it's going to hurt users _is_ malice.
    bunderbunder · 1789730218 · focus · HN ↗
    It really isn’t. Not necessarily. Sometimes it’s just doing what you need to do to keep your job. If you have ever worked in a maybe organization like this you might have done that kind of thing yourself. You might not even have realized it at the time because you were so caught up in keeping your head down and surviving the bureaucracy.
2. bibstha · 1789682847 · focus · HN ↗
  Silly that the error message doesn't convey that, right? I recently got added to a company's Teams account as a guest. I do a bit of software contract work and have used Slack with no issue until now, this is what Teams show me:
  a. Client says they added me already, but I have no email with an invite. Turns out I didn't have an account that had previously joined Teams with a personal account. b. But even after I created a teams account, due to the order of events (added to corp account as guest, then created a teams account), I still don't have access and need to be readded. c. I can't upload images on groups because I don't have OneDrive access, WTF? d. i cannot download transcripts of meetings I join because I don't have permission.
  How bad can a software be? Really?
  1. BradBird · 1789757942 · focus · HN ↗
    This is bad management, not bad software. It's just like everything non-apple. Android and Microsoft give you choice and potential value but it requires knowledge and setup.
    Apple gives you neither choice or value, but everything just "work$". People come to me saying I used windows and it sucked, and that's because they are comparing a 500 dollar Acer laptop with a 1500 Macbook Air with no knowlge on how to properly use Windows.
    Both have their market place, unfortunately the users with the least knowledge are the ones always complaining about Windows. And, let me tell you, when something is broken with their Mac, they also don't know what to do. See OP's post as a perfect example. They blame MS not their IT admin.
    It's the reason Apple calls their support Genius bar. They are trying to message out "Hey, you really are smart, we are just geniuses". Well, you're not.
3. bunderbunder · 1789682986 · focus · HN ↗
  I'm not so sure about that. For a while now I've worked at companies where PC users could use desktop Office but Mac users had to use the Web version. I think that Office for Mac might actually be a largely separate codebase - there are also significant feature differences between it and the PC version.
  Also, just quickly poking through their various enterprise plans (<a href="https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/enterprise/microsoft-365-plans-and-pricing" rel="nofollow">https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/enterprise/mic...), I found several that offered Web & Windows but not Mac, and none that only allowed editing on Web like you describe.
  1. BradBird · 1789757658 · focus · HN ↗
    M365 F3 only allows editing on the web. E3-7 all allow editing on both Mac and Windows PCs.
4. henriquenunez · 1789713597 · focus · HN ↗
  It's not only web version, because it was working just fine a few months ago.
  And they are paying microsoft a lot. The whole financial, HR, marketing departments and even some research groups use "Teams" to communicate.
  It's unbeliveable.
  1. Scharkenberg · 1789848819 · focus · HN ↗
    > it was working just fine a few months ago
    Admins can reallocate licenses of different types among accounts or change them completely. That it worked fine a few months ago means nothing. Your account currently doesn't have a desktop entitlement at all, be it macOS or Windows.
    Talk to your M365 admins and beware of lies they might tell you to cover up the truth.
Handy-Man · 1789682280 · focus · HN ↗
It seems your plan wouldn't even allow editing on Windows. Your university seems to be just paying for web versions.
jadar · 1789682293 · focus · HN ↗
First, doesn't Microsoft give away M365 for free to educational institutions? (Perhaps that's only US institutions, though.) Second, isn't this how they bill their accounts — Business Basic doesn't get desktop apps and you need to pay more to use desktop apps? Third, did the OP try to open their document in LibreOffice? I think there's a legitimate criticism of the move from one-time lifetime purchases to the SaaS economy, but Microsoft isn't the only one who deserves criticism for this.
1. saulpw · 1789682393 · focus · HN ↗
  Perhaps Microsoft is the biggest one though? (Who could possibly be bigger?)
  1. jadar · 1789682519 · focus · HN ↗
    Perhaps Google would be bigger? They don't even have desktop app offerings and the consumer versions are subsidized with your advertising data. They certainly weren't the first to introduce the pattern. I feel like Adobe was one of the first big providers to move from lifetime licenses to subscriptions.
2. BlueTissuePaper · 1789691162 · focus · HN ↗
  After I finished University I was told I could keep my email for life. I can't recall now the license (Web Office apps, Onedrive, email) but Microsoft decided to pull the plug so the university had to close out the old accounts. I understand Onedrive, but not allowing email to continue?!
  Microsoft are price gouging. Shortly after Microsoft ended the 10x Free Business Premium for Not For Profit/Charities, I went to a convention and Microsoft had a talk about how to maximise profits from NFP/Charities;
  "NFP doesn't mean no money" "Microsoft are doing more for charities and NFP to help build blah blah"
  VERY rich after literally dropping these licenses which most small NFPs would run off exclusively for office staff.
jimbobimbo · 1789682327 · focus · HN ↗
Alternative headline: my university had bought a (cheaper?) plan which doesn't tick all necessary boxes.
1. Grombobulous · 1789682943 · focus · HN ↗
  This is a good time to point out that Microsoft’s tiers and pricing for Microsoft 365 is completely insane as far as the overwhelming number of different ways to fundamentally buy the exact same software.
  I realize they’re trying to sell a productivity suite to basically every business on earth and that the complexity might at some point be necessary, but still…could be simpler.
2. rwz · 1789686847 · focus · HN ↗
  I think the main point is that the existence of this box is a problem, not that someone forgot or deliberately chosen not to tick it.
yndoendo · 1789682393 · focus · HN ↗
You have to pay me to use Microsoft products and services.
The user experience gets worse with each passing year. A good product designer would see numerous flaws with in five minutes of using their office suite.
1. johnsmith1840 · 1789683073 · focus · HN ↗
  I recently was building out on azure and oh boy, the joy of microsoft products.
  Their troubleshoot support tool must be the same team that makes it on local windows troubleshooter because literally every single time you use it, it spins for 10min then says it can't fix anything.
2. vinni2 · 1789683535 · focus · HN ↗
  > You have to pay me to use Microsoft products and services.
  I had this same attitude and boy did they pay me (or my startup) to use azure, they gave us shit load of free credits I couldn’t resist.
  But at the same time my university is forcing us to use Exchange for email. I have no way around that and Office 365 and Teams are default softwares. I hate it but I can’t do anything about it.
  1. WalterBright · 1789683794 · focus · HN ↗
    How can they force you to not use Thunderbird mail? If I use Thunderbird mail to send an email to an Exchange user, would it be blocked? How about vice versa?
    vinni2 · 1790021069 · focus · HN ↗
    Well sure you can use Thunderbird but our IT department makes it harder. You need to authenticate more often if you use anything other than outlook and Thunderbird unfortunately doesn’t support office 365 calendar. Now the exchange server dropped support EWS forcing everyone to use their Graph API which is yet to be supported by Apple mail.
3. RajT88 · 1789708290 · focus · HN ↗
  > You have to pay me to use Microsoft products and services
  That is part of your value proposition as an employee to know the secret tricks of dealing bullshit in the ecosystem.
  I am not saying it is right. Just that no ecosystem is free from heinous bullshit - and OSS is largely free of greed-based bullshit. Just not of dysfunction-based bullshit.
  My 2 cents anyways. Grass is always greener and all that.
4. drooopy · 1789723536 · focus · HN ↗
  You'd have to pay me as well to use any Microsoft product, which is exactly what's been happening at my place of work haha
pelagicAustral · 1789682401 · focus · HN ↗
Skill issue, this is why I mainline a macbook pro, a windows shitbox laptop and my kubuntu katana mega riced XPS. Yeah, I also walk about with a live cd.
1. humungus · 1789682745 · focus · HN ↗
  based
harmlessblu · 1789682453 · focus · HN ↗
I've seen this and I think it's actually a bug. I have mac computers at work and occasionally this will crop up and typically signing out and back in resolves the issue.
[deleted] · 1789682547 · focus · HN ↗
[deleted]
bjt12345 · 1789682949 · focus · HN ↗
I think one of the more insane things Microsoft have done is their product management of MS Visio.
It became so insanely expensive my work started making us apply for 3 month licenses until we gave up and found something else.
About 15 years ago my Industry was using MS Visio for every diagram.
But they updated the GUI entirely and nobody could be bothered with the new format.
Now people use DrawIO and MS Visio is forgotten.
1. kown7 · 1789683154 · focus · HN ↗
  I don't know what you're doing and I feel all of your Visio pain, but have you tried typst?
  1. jadbox · 1789683513 · focus · HN ↗
    I do like Typst, but Typst isn't really ideal for diagrams... you could use it that way but I don't think it's ideal. Mermaid or PlantUML are better/cleaner options.
    0x1ch · 1789684020 · focus · HN ↗
    Agreed. My resume and slides are all templated with Typst, but I can't be bothered trying UML languages to make diagrams that'll probably be referenced once or twice a year, if ever.
  2. ashton314 · 1789708195 · focus · HN ↗
    [delayed]
2. briangray · 1789684114 · focus · HN ↗
  Similar story. We moved to DrawIO desktop. I now also use it as a replacement for whiteboarding and have it open in most meetings.
3. lopsotronic · 1789688277 · focus · HN ↗
  About ten years ago I went with text-based graph description languages and haven't looked back[1].
  One application of AI I have found useful is in the quick composition of graphs via text-based graph description languages: graphviz (the great granddaddy), mermaid.js, plantuml, and of course derivatives like WireViz and CircuiTikZ.
  A typical ask would be something like "generate a mermaid network diagram showing the relationships of all markup languages". It's surprisingly good.
  A neat trick you can do if writing in Asciidoc: conditional directives are pre-processor directives, which means they're interpreted before the graphing engine goes to work. So you can make art that has sectionds which can toggle on and off based on document variables (the Asciidoc lingo for these is "attributes" but using that word can be confusing for old XML hands).
  [1] Unless I need 3d, in which case I'm afraid I like Blender a lot. Even more than Asciidoc.
miamicholo · 1789682972 · focus · HN ↗
Outlook is the new Lotus Notes
1. flowerlad · 1789683200 · focus · HN ↗
  Outlook for Windows used to be great in the 90s and early 2000s. Since then all they have done is added new bugs. And the latest version is HTML/JavaScript in a WebView, no longer native Windows.
mrdatawolf · 1789683092 · focus · HN ↗
An Apple user complaining about this? Oh that is rich!
I don't condone or like this kind of thing from MS. We all know though who MS copies...
You support the company that perfected it. So pot meet kettle.
1. jbubimon · 1789683483 · focus · HN ↗
  Except Apple’s products tend to be at the very least good. The baseline for Microsoft products, however, is unusable.
legitster · 1789683217 · focus · HN ↗
This is more about the Office 365 admin configuration settings than about Microsoft's products themselves.
"Why do people still buy Microsoft?" Because admins can make weird configuration settings.
Scharkenberg · 1789683394 · focus · HN ↗
Henrique should take it up to his university. When I was a student, mine used to provide me with an account that could use desktop apps on Windows and Mac. Educational institutions get very cheap license bundles compared to enterprises btw.
(Also funny that he says we should not use proprietary software, but ignores his own usage of macOS.)
1. janalsncm · 1789683543 · focus · HN ↗
  The point is that OS specific licenses shouldn’t exist. Especially when Microsoft makes Word and Windows.
  1. Scharkenberg · 1789848565 · focus · HN ↗
    In this context they don't. There is no license where one can use PowerPoint on Windows, but not on macOS. It would not work on Windows either, because the problem is that his account is only entitled to the web version of the Office apps. The exact wording of the message he got is platform-specific and it doesn't even mention Windows at all.
2. stuartd · 1789683594 · focus · HN ↗
  > Please stop using windows. Please stop using proprietary document formats.
3. henriquenunez · 1789713404 · focus · HN ↗
  As much as I would like, I do not see a future where 100% of software is open source, and I see some benefits on proprietary software (well, before the age of slop and the low entry barrier for reversing things).
  However, I do think that the information itself (videos, documents) should be in open formats with open specifications, that allow new / other programs to open them.
adamredwoods · 1789683427 · focus · HN ↗
Is this loosely in regards to the US Cloud Act? <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AUpASjLV0E" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AUpASjLV0E
Don't forget: <a href="https://www.libreoffice.org/" rel="nofollow">https://www.libreoffice.org/
jbeyer · 1789683548 · focus · HN ↗
I purchased a "perpetual" license for Office 2019 for Mac some years ago. In the last few months, a key certificate expired, and completely bricked the software.
MSFT is well aware of the issue, but has decided that they are no longer supporting Office 2019, despite the "perpetual" license.
This is clearly planned obsolescence and false advertising. A state AG should investigate.
1. gnabgib · 1789686662 · focus · HN ↗
  That's a competing OS issue, not a perpetual Office issue (2013 is still running fine for me, but best not to open untrusted docx)
2. themadturk · 1789693404 · focus · HN ↗
  I did this as well a few years ago, fortunately for a relatively small sum of money. I don't need MS products all that much, usually just Word. So I'm very happy with LibreOffice.
3. rstuart4133 · 1789714201 · focus · HN ↗
  [delayed]
  1. ghusto · 1789728328 · focus · HN ↗
    I heard the novel term "Golf Driven Development" the other day. Essentially it's where software/services aren't sold because people wanted or asked for them, they're sold because one CEO played golf with another CEO (with the express purpose of making this happen).
    Salesforce, Microsoft, Atlassian, and co. are obviously sold on their merits.
  2. SirFatty · 1789733954 · focus · HN ↗
    Also, the inability to have older software installed with newer software because of the installer type. e.g. Visio 2019 and Office 365 suite cannot coexist.
throwaway13337 · 1789683685 · focus · HN ↗
This is cloud-era software philosophy. The device isn't yours. The software isn't yours. You are not a sovereign in your private space.
It was a choice, made by product designers and government regulators. They came from an ethos that had no respect for individual human dignity and self-determination.
The good news, though, is that it's most the software layer we're interacting with. And software has become so very much easier and cheaper to build. And it is easier still to take software that's built already and make it yours (as long as it's open source). These things can all come together to end the cloud age, if we want them to.
We can, right now, and individually, choose to use software that is ours. The chains that were real - that software required lots of people to build and propietary formats were hard to interoperate with - are gone. We just have a learned helplessness problem from spending the last 15-20 years under those chains.
Well, Baby steps I guess?
1. M95D · 1789721133 · focus · HN ↗
  Baby steps, but backwards. The option to disable secure boot will be gone any moment now, by automatic updates "for security", of course. It will probably begin with business laptops, then all laptops, then all x86.
NathanielBaking · 1789683752 · focus · HN ↗
Might I suggest you familiarize yourself with myriad open source options. Let me guess, you have an iPhone too.
1. epihelix · 1789684543 · focus · HN ↗
  Unfortunately, universities have entrenched with Word documents that cannot format correctly on any FOSS solution, or even on the web version of M365 Word. I have tried, so many times, to request form compatibility at least with the web app. Not going to happen.
  I have a Windows VM with Word installed, just so I can fill in stupid institutionalised forms :( Drives me nuts.
  1. tombert · 1789689456 · focus · HN ↗
    At the risk of getting in trouble for frequent self promotion, I sicked Claude for a few hours, and Office 365 works with Wine on Linux: <a href="https://github.com/Tombert/office365_flake" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/Tombert/office365_flake
    It seems to work fine for me, with a legit Office 365 account.
    I can't promise it will fix your problems but it's the "real", full-fat Windows version of Office, so it might be a starting point if you want to avoid virtualization.
0x20cowboy · 1789683756 · focus · HN ↗
Less angry than this, but I’ve started needing to use windows for a project, and it’s hilarious how terrible everything is. From constant notifications about everything - everything everywhere all the time - to horrifically overly complicated UI where the one setting you need is in 10 menus and 45 tree nodes to onenote and copilot constantly reseting themselves and asking me to log in to something I dont care about. I truely wonder how anyone can use this all day and get anything done.
The one thing Ill give it is at least you can still run a binary with having to pay $200 for the privilege to compile an application.
What have we become?
1. toomuchtodo · 1789684431 · focus · HN ↗
  This is the end result of capitalism and the desire for endless growth. If you want to avoid it, use source software at parity or create new open source solutions with LLMs.
lousken · 1789683817 · focus · HN ↗
Why do people still use microslop in the age of ai?
1. tombert · 1789684240 · focus · HN ↗
  I've said this before, but Microsoft has a bizarre reality distortion field where people will simply forget the bullshit they put up with with their software.
  People will (correctly) complain about jankiness and bullshit associated with Linux, but simply forget that Windows Update bricked their computer because their developers do not understand secure boot, or how they broke copypaste, or how they broke Notepad, or how the Windows "Repair Tools" have never worked for anyone in history.
  Linux certainly has its issues, I'm not going to pretend it's perfect, but I do feel like I still put up with less garbage from it than people do with Windows. Also, even if I do get some garbage from it, you know what's cool? Snapshots actually work, something you cannot say about Windows System Restore.
  Bit of a shameless bit of self-promotion, but.... <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49746401">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49746401
nalekberov · 1789683863 · focus · HN ↗
I don't understand why the author thinks that Apple is any better than Microsoft.
Heck, you can use cracked Windows on any compatible machine. Can you do that with MacOS? Apple is selfish, it wants to control the entire chain.
1. M95D · 1789721347 · focus · HN ↗
  It might not be better, but you can't use that argument.
  1. nalekberov · 1789741657 · focus · HN ↗
    I can and as a matter of fact, I did.
hmokiguess · 1789683989 · focus · HN ↗
We*
We Hate You Microsoft.
bede · 1789684135 · focus · HN ↗
I've been using university-licensed Office for a decade across several fresh MacOS Installs. Only in the last year have I started frequently receiving "sign-in to verify license" nags not unlike the OP's. These also cripple editing functionality until you sign in, forcing you to do the 2FA dance every time. The same rot afflicts mobile apps lately. It's such bad taste to perform license checks this aggressively.
Teams is also flaky on the Mac. About 1 in 4 times I join a call Teams gets stuck and I either must restart it or use the browser (which never fails). This has recurred across multiple physical Macs.
1. henriquenunez · 1789713439 · focus · HN ↗
  It's impossible to use teams on a mac, and on firefox. It makes me open a chromium-based browswer or it just doesnt load.
rawgabbit · 1789684214 · focus · HN ↗
[delayed]
detay · 1789684232 · focus · HN ↗
Microsoft is a parasite, a tick that lives off of consumer blood. They fucked up hard with internet, mobile, cloud, gaming, hardware and now with AI. No good can come from this company, ever.
throwaway3921 · 1789687265 · focus · HN ↗
A change in management at my work as decreed that we are all in on M365 and Azure. So will be migrating from Google Workspace, AWS EC2 & Aurora, and Cloudflare. Man it looks painful.
It will be interesting to see how I do with my Linux desktop...
sam345 · 1789689165 · focus · HN ↗
This is the educational free license. It doesn't allow desktop apps. Only the browser version. It's like Google for the web. It's fine for most people. It's like complaining. You have to use Google sheets instead of XL desktop. If you don't like it, tell your admin and they might pay a few dollars for a license. Microsoft is actually an excellent value for educational licenses. For a few dollars a month, you get a ton of desktop apps and a lot of web-based apps. And for free, you still get a lot.
VCFundedGenYer · 1789698415 · focus · HN ↗
The author has many, many alternatives.
LibreOffice. OnlyOffice. Collabora Office. Keynote.
While it is scummy that MS did this, the author needs to grow a pair and look up the millions of ways to open a .pptx.
1. henriquenunez · 1789713241 · focus · HN ↗
  I also use open source office programs. Honestly if it were for me I would write my slides in latex.
  Note that I did not say create a presentation. I said open a presentation.
  The document in particular has a load of animations, videos, and "rich" powerpoint resources that have been carefully and purposefully designed to be difficult to interop with other software.
  Remember?
  "One thing we have got to change in our strategy – allowing Office documents to be rendered very well by other people's browsers is one of the most destructive things we could do to the company."
  <a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20110930232927/http://antitrust.slated.org/www.iowaconsumercase.org/011607/2000/PX02991.pdf" rel="nofollow">https://web.archive.org/web/20110930232927/http://antitrust....
flaep · 1789711009 · focus · HN ↗
here is the Edu-Licensing overview: <a href="https://aka.ms/EDU-Plan-Comparison" rel="nofollow">https://aka.ms/EDU-Plan-Comparison
My guess would be, that your university run out of A3 licenses. You got an basic A1. Every education account gets at least A1. If you just created your Microsoft account, you need to wait till a license is assigned. This is automatic but not fast.
Office is not free for students. For every teacher an institution gets an ammount of student licenses. If there are a lot more students then teacher then not everyone gets a license.
Bottom line, do not use microsoft products at all. With new rules in germany (europe?), public sector is supposed to use open document standards anyway.

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