The framing of how we think about AI has really been cultivated by a quite homogeneous group of people. These people, like all people that belong to a sub-culture, are almost certainly prone to groupthink.
It's extremely important to see that group as such. That it is not thousands of individual perspectives but a chorus of connected/aligned people who have all read the same things and talked to the same people and are rewarded implicitly for thinking a similar way.
Many of them read HN and are offended I put them this way. But it's inescapable that we as humans have this flaw when we're surrounded by a culture.
There's another universe where we do not constantly compare AI to nukes. I bet that world has a lower P(doom).
We all use the same Internet. I would find it strange for anyone who's seriously interested in AI to have never heard of Yudkowsky or Scott Alexander or the Rationalist movement. I'd expect anyone interested in the field to have at least tried reading some of their articles over the years.
Like, if you never heard of them, were you living in a cave or something? It would be like never having heard of Y Combinator or Richard Stallman.
On the face of it, this is no more suspicious than reading the same best-selling books. Being in touch with what's going on doesn't necessarily mean people agree.
There's a difference between, on the one hand, knowing who they are and having read a few chapters of HPMoR, which I agree is standard for anyone who spends enough time on the Internet, vs. on the other hand actually identifying as part of that culture. I know who Stallman is, I've even seen him speak in person, but I'm not a GNU zealot.
The people described in the article aren't just "people who know who Yudkowsky is", they're self-avowed EAs and active LessWrong members.
maybe its standard for someone who ends up on hackernews, but I'm a 30 something and all of my friends are online people around my age and none of them have ever heard of the HPMoR. The internet is a huge place.
I've had an internet email address since the late 80s, BBSing since the early 80s, pretty active online compared to many people I know who are also software people, especially for my age..
Had to google to figure out the abbreviation and look at the summary. I HAD heard the name before, but that's about it.
The higher up comment expressing disbelief at people not having heard of this is just a form of <a href="https://xkcd.com/2501/" rel="nofollow">https://xkcd.com/2501/
Ive heard of HPMoR specifically because this exact group has been discussed/entered my periphery before on multiple occasions, Aella goes viral on twitter every couple of weeks (the thing that most cemented her in my mind was the "what counts as rape" survey), and I remember seeing articles of the Zizians when one of the incidents happened. If you have been following the social/political aspects of the tech industry, most of these people should be familiar names.
I would second this. I only saw it in passing where someone was rightfully making fun of yud somewhere, but having been in and out of academia in tech for two decades now, I've never heard anyone mention fanfic or yud other than randos on HN threads, and most of the physics people I know, at least the ones familiar with Jaynes and his contemporaries, would almost certainly laugh at a lot of fumbles I occasionally see with people trying to apply "baysenianism".
I'm not sure what your argument is. I don't have anything against fanfiction, but a couple of sites with a few million users falls under my definition of niche. "Extreme" might be taking it a bit far, but it's a long distance from mainstream.
That's a niche even among people who read fan fiction, which is a niche among people who read long texts online which is a niche among people who read the anglophone internet which is a niche among people who were on the internet when that type of "discourse" was popular which is a niche among people on the internet now.
You can (and probably will) quibble with any one of these but of course this is a niche. Thinking it isn't is commonly what people in a certain bubble end up believing, though.
Harry Potter has 600K works on AO3 and 852K on fanfiction.net (with plenty of overlap, granted). That's #1 on Fanfiction.net, and in the top 5 for AO3. AO3 is #53 globally, Fanfiction.net is #572, and Wattpad is #323 by Semrush. Given all that, calling HP fanfiction niche is pretty funny.
And no, not a member of any cult, just someone who enjoyed a send up of Harry Potter.
Fanfiction.net is a niche. None of my scifi loving, tech friends are aware it exists. And neither did I (or was barely aware or it, anyway), until you just mentioned it. I'm not young either, and I'm more online than the average (I know of Something Awful, Slashdot, 4chan, etc).
A while ago, a friend told me about Harry Potter's Rationality fanfic and he didn't know who Yudkowsky was, he just thought it was some random author doing a parody of HP. LessWrong is of course very niche, my friend didn't have the faintest idea of what LW was.
You people are so quick to correct me that you don't understand my argument: HPMOR is not niche in the world of fanfiction, and this doesn't require fanfiction to not be niche. You're also answering stats with anecdotes, so I think we are done here.
You didn't claim hpmor isn't niche in the fanfic community, you claimed it isn't niche on /the Internet/, and implied that basically anyone in a technical role would have heard of it. I'm sorry that you're upset to learn that very few people care about sophomoric LW thought experiments, but that's the reality of your existence.
> "niche"? It's literally one of the most read pieces of fanfiction of all time.
Where did I say it wasn't niche on the internet? Though you seem to be more interested in personal attacks (I'm not even a fucking EA/LW person, but go off lmao). Good day
>>> having read a few chapters of HPMoR, which I agree is standard for anyone who spends enough time on the Internet
>> You have to be quite unaware of your bubble if you think knowing about a niche Harry Potter fanfic is "standard" for people on the Internet.
> "niche"? It's literally one of the most read pieces of fanfiction of all time.
You jumped into a conversation about the ubiquity of something for people on the Internet. Either your claim is about that, in which case it's wrong, or it's not about that, in which case it's irrelevant.
Literally over half the Earth's population doesn't read English. You need to touch grass. I work with extremely technical people in physics and AI and none of them have read any fanfic of any kind. Most of them have never seen a meme outside of me showing it to them.
You're so offended at the idea that your experiences are not generalizable that you're failing to read the thread. The OP that started this said "We all use the same Internet. I would find it strange for anyone who's seriously interested in AI to have never heard of Yudkowsky or Scott Alexander or the Rationalist movement."
Part of my comment addressed that. It's rather amusing that you completely skipped the first part, but I think that's par for the course for the Internet rationalist crowd.
I spend a lot of time on the Internet and other then sounding vaguely familiar I have no idea who Yudkowsky is and have never read any of their output.
The assumption "spent a lot of time on the Internet" is still through a framing you're assuming is more general even then.
HackerNews straight up has sub demographics who likely barely interact based on article interests.
throwaway13337 · · focus · HN ↗
It's extremely important to see that group as such. That it is not thousands of individual perspectives but a chorus of connected/aligned people who have all read the same things and talked to the same people and are rewarded implicitly for thinking a similar way.
Many of them read HN and are offended I put them this way. But it's inescapable that we as humans have this flaw when we're surrounded by a culture.
There's another universe where we do not constantly compare AI to nukes. I bet that world has a lower P(doom).
skybrian · · focus · HN ↗
Like, if you never heard of them, were you living in a cave or something? It would be like never having heard of Y Combinator or Richard Stallman.
On the face of it, this is no more suspicious than reading the same best-selling books. Being in touch with what's going on doesn't necessarily mean people agree.
GeneralMayhem · · focus · HN ↗
The people described in the article aren't just "people who know who Yudkowsky is", they're self-avowed EAs and active LessWrong members.
riversflow · · focus · HN ↗
hn_acc1 · · focus · HN ↗
Had to google to figure out the abbreviation and look at the summary. I HAD heard the name before, but that's about it.
lovich · · focus · HN ↗
____mr____ · · focus · HN ↗
rpcope1 · · focus · HN ↗
Gangway0829 · · focus · HN ↗
ChickeNES · · focus · HN ↗
sampullman · · focus · HN ↗
ChickeNES · · focus · HN ↗
sampullman · · focus · HN ↗
matzab · · focus · HN ↗
You can (and probably will) quibble with any one of these but of course this is a niche. Thinking it isn't is commonly what people in a certain bubble end up believing, though.
ChickeNES · · focus · HN ↗
And no, not a member of any cult, just someone who enjoyed a send up of Harry Potter.
the_af · · focus · HN ↗
A while ago, a friend told me about Harry Potter's Rationality fanfic and he didn't know who Yudkowsky was, he just thought it was some random author doing a parody of HP. LessWrong is of course very niche, my friend didn't have the faintest idea of what LW was.
ChickeNES · · focus · HN ↗
Gangway0829 · · focus · HN ↗
ChickeNES · · focus · HN ↗
Where did I say it wasn't niche on the internet? Though you seem to be more interested in personal attacks (I'm not even a fucking EA/LW person, but go off lmao). Good day
FreakLegion · · focus · HN ↗
>> You have to be quite unaware of your bubble if you think knowing about a niche Harry Potter fanfic is "standard" for people on the Internet.
> "niche"? It's literally one of the most read pieces of fanfiction of all time.
You jumped into a conversation about the ubiquity of something for people on the Internet. Either your claim is about that, in which case it's wrong, or it's not about that, in which case it's irrelevant.
Gangway0829 · · focus · HN ↗
ChickeNES · · focus · HN ↗
> I work with extremely technical people in physics and AI and none of them have read any fanfic of any kind.
I'm sorry, it's you who are in a bubble lol
Gangway0829 · · focus · HN ↗
Part of my comment addressed that. It's rather amusing that you completely skipped the first part, but I think that's par for the course for the Internet rationalist crowd.
XorNot · · focus · HN ↗
The assumption "spent a lot of time on the Internet" is still through a framing you're assuming is more general even then.
HackerNews straight up has sub demographics who likely barely interact based on article interests.