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Show HN: Microsoft Office running with Wine on Linux with no virtualization

97 points · 91 comments · tombert

  1. farseer · · focus · HN ↗
    I feel like the entire world needs to take a plunge towards LibreOffice for the good of all.
    1. Daviey · · focus · HN ↗
      The biggest blocker for me is having confidence my output renders the same with people using MS Office, pdf output isn't always sufficient.
      1. MrDrMcCoy · · focus · HN ↗
        That has been a lot less of a problem lately. Why not try again and open a bug report if there's an issue?
        1. afavour · · focus · HN ↗
          Because there’s no one and done testing for it. You need to check every document you make with Office (so you’re paying for Office anyway…) to ensure it’s correct.

          All very well for an open source software project but for software you’re using day to day to achieve other, business central, goals, it’s a lot of lost time with little benefit.

          1. hagbard_c · · focus · HN ↗
            > for software you’re using day to day to achieve other, business central, goals...

            ...you should use something which is reliable, no more complicated than needed for the purpose, which assures documents made now can be read in the distant future, keeps your confidential information out of the wrong hands and which is sure to be available to anyone who needs to have access to it.

            Doesn't really sound like Microsoft Office is a good fit if you ask me.

            1. afavour · · focus · HN ↗
              You want to use the same stuff your clients use, that’s guaranteed to look the same on their computer. So Office it is.
              1. hagbard_c · · focus · HN ↗
                Well, you want to be using what your clients can read, it doesn't have to the the same software. This is true for most file formats - audio, video, image/graphics (the latter more restricted due to other entrenched proprietary formats) - but the 'office' space (no pun intended) is still suffering from decades of abuse of its position os operating system vendor by Microsoft. Windows is only getting worse with every release so it is just smart business sense to steer away from it and things depending on it. Microsoft Office is one of the few remaining reasons often quoted for staying with this deteriorating platform so there are other incentives to move away from it. The best moment for moving away from Windows was years - or decades - ago. The second best moment is now.
      2. hagbard_c · · focus · HN ↗
        As long as that is the goal Microsoft can block uptake of any competitor simply by making sure that is never achieved. They have a lot of history with this - DOS ain't done 'till 1-2-3 won't run etc. - so you can rest assured that they'll do it again. Maybe you should change your output so it isn't as reliant on 'rendering the same', i.e. make it less complex and with that less easy for Microsoft to claim the error lies with the other party? Word is not a DTP package nor a typesetter, it is a document editor. Fancy layout has never been the forte of this class of programs, they're meant to make sure the output works on different computers, different printers, different monitors.
      3. drnick1 · · focus · HN ↗
        When is a PDF not sufficient? I write all my reports/letters in LaTeX and if someone complained about receiving a PDF, I would send them the source and wish them good luck.
        1. tombert · · focus · HN ↗
          That is actually why I got into LaTeX in the first place!

          My resume was initially done with LibreOffice and I'd send recruiters a PDF, and they would ask for a .docx, and when I would send that they would screw up all the formatting by inserting their ugly logo on the top.

          When I "ported" my resume over to LaTeX, I would send the PDF and they'd ask for a .docx, I would say "Oh, the resume is done in LaTeX. Here's a link to the source and instructions on how to compile it, feel free to do what you need".

          Then they would just submit the raw PDF.

          1. menotyou · · focus · HN ↗
            ..or they would just not submit it at all.
            1. tombert · · focus · HN ↗
              As far as I am aware that never happened. Every time this particular situation has happened, I have gotten a callback.
              1. Daviey · · focus · HN ↗
                If you did this to me, fine.

                If you had done this to a recruiter that funnels screened people to me, I'd make sure to not interview you. It shows total lack of awareness of how to deal with non-tech people, verging on arrogance.

                1. tombert · · focus · HN ↗
                  …what?

                  How would that work logistically? You would get a regular resume with formatting that isn’t fucked up and you would think “this is a guy who I shouldn’t hire”? You’d have a stack of resumes, all of which are broken, and you’d see one that isn’t and that would be a red flag?

                  How exactly is it “arrogant”? I didn’t like that my resume formatting was breaking because of the people who insisted on inserting their ugly logo on top the page. I had historically asked them to stop doing that, or at the very least to show me the end result before they submitted, and they would simply not work with me. I think my solution actually demonstrates a lot of awareness in how to deal with “non-tech people”.

                  1. Daviey · · focus · HN ↗
                    The recruiter wouldn't compile anything, they'd just tell me "this guy sent me a GitHub repo instead of a CV", or more likely just not mention your application. A recruiter who reliably funnels screened people to me is worth far more than any single application, so that's how it plays out logistically - you get dropped and never hear about it. "As far as I am aware" is carrying a lot of weight there.

                    The arrogant bit is "here's a link to the source and instructions on how to compile it, feel free to do what you need". A recruiter asking for an editable version wants something they can drop their letterhead on and forward to the client. Handing them a build task assumes they have both the skills and the inclination to meet you on your toolchain. Nobody expects you to be their typesetter either; the difference in skills isn't the problem, assuming the difference away is.

                    That mismatch is the part I'd actually be screening for. A company is mostly non-engineering people: sales, support, HR, PMs who can't read a diff. The recruiter is the one non-technical person in your hiring pipeline, and how you handle them is a sample of how you'd handle the fifty you'd work alongside. If the instinct is to make them come to your toolchain rather than meet them where they are, that plays out in every meeting and every "quick question" from sales for as long as you're employed. The CV is the one document whose entire purpose is to sell you to a non-technical audience, and handling that poorly is telling.

                    I've maintained my own CV in LaTeX for ~20 years and would never dream of sending a recruiter a Makefile and telling them to work it out.

                    Sent to me directly? Fine, I'd read the repo, probably be impressed, might even see if I could improve mine from it. That was never the scenario though.

                    1. tombert · · focus · HN ↗
                      I don't agree with you being mass-downvoted, since you're just espousing your opinion, even if it's one I don't agree with.

                      That said, I think we're at a fundamental disagreement here; the recruiters would screw up the formatting in a way that would make the resume say things that are flatly untrue. It's not just aesthetic. For example, I used to put the amount of experience I had in different technologies, and because they would break the alignment it would look like I had more years experience with Node.js than Node.js had even existed at that point.

                      When I would politely ask recruiters to, at the very least, send me the updated resume with their ugly logo so I could point these things out, they would universally agree and then never actually do it before sending it to the potential employer. This was literally 100% of the time, there was not a single outlier here. That's not nothing; a competent interviewer might think they've caught me in a lie and not move forward. I'm no exception; if I saw that a person said they had more experience with a technology than the laws of physics would dictate, I would assume they're full of shit and pass on the resume.

                      So you tell me, what exactly should I do? Waste my time and the technically incompetent recruiter's time and the interviewer's time because they think I'm more qualified for something than I ever said I was? Or I could simply, hear me out, create a situation where these "non-tech people" can't screw this up, because they invariably would. I guess you can call it "arrogant" if you want, but I really think it's considerably less douchey than wasting everyone's time.

                      With the advent of LLMs they could point Claude to the LaTeX source and get it in any format they want. Or they could, and I think they largely did, just forward the raw PDF (which I always provided), maybe using Preview to insert their ugly logo somewhere where it doesn't screw up formatting. If they had asked me to do the logo insertion, I would have inserted it myself because I'm not incompetent with typesetting.

                      Frankly, though, the resume is actually working as intentional, because I do not believe that I would be a good culture-fit on your team so it would be best not to waste your time anyway.

                      1. Daviey · · focus · HN ↗

                        [dead]

        2. Daviey · · focus · HN ↗
          When I need other people to continue editing it.

          I also prefer LaTeX, I've written hundreds of letters, multiple papers, a few thesis and my CV (maintained for the last ~20 years). But the defacto for business documents sadly isn't LaTeX.

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