> we urgently need to come up with good ways of explaining the value of having a large pool of human mathematical experts, even if it is no longer part of their role to find new proofs of theorems.
This is the main issue, and while I fully agree with that value sentiment, the Fields medallists’ letter failed to provide convincing arguments for why mathematicians should widely receive funding for merely understanding things, and how competition for postdoc and tenure positions would work under these circumstances.
>why mathematicians should widely receive funding for merely understanding things
imagine yourself living in the 1700s. how would you justify Newton and Leibniz's work on calculus?
all maritime engineering and trade was done with geometry and arithmetic at the time. there were no practical applications, not for likely at least a century until hydrodynamics were incorporated into shipbuilding
now look at today. how many of our modern technologies rely on the field having been birthed? that could only exist because of even further decades-worth of antecedent refinements, extrapolations, applications that had, at their time, no direct utilitarian cause?
there's no KPI to be derived from any academic field of study at the bleeding edge of theory. theoretical underpinnings lead to practical applications much further down the line after many paradigm shifts
semiotics and cultural capital as theoretical concepts is another example - at the time they were purely seen as navel-gazey literary theory work. these days, half a century later, they're in wide use (for better or worse) in marketing and advertising - they birthed the whole concept of 'branding'
not everything needs immediate, quantifiable justification. to believe it does indicates a need for a period of self-reflection, to figure out how and when you became so heavily influenced by the MBA-brained propaganda that the world should revolve around the quarter-by-quarter creation of capital
True, but this is also a stunning example of survivorship bias.
Countless other mathematical curiosities were developed in the 1700s -- and forgotten. Calculus just happens to be the one that found practical applications later, so that's the one that's well known today.
It's difficult to draw the conclusion that "every possible branch of learning ought to be funded" by appealing to "later practical value" based on this cherrypicked example.
On the other hand, clearly _some_ novel theoretical work with no apparent immediate value _does_ yield real world benefit later.
Since we lack the resources to fund every PhD with a crazy theory on what the next new subfield ought to be, how do we decide?
Seems like AI could help massively there, by removing a huge bottleneck around technical elaboration and application seeking.
I actually just think every person should have their basic survival provided for efficiently by society. My argument is that most people only veg out because they are tired of a hectic work life, but if given the chance to coast for a long time they would find productive work voluntarily and be more inclined to share their work. My claim then, is that society would net a benefit from this arrangement which would more than pay for itself. And you don’t have to try to pick winners and losers.
It's very unlikely anyone with the intelligence to contribute to math research can't already find a non-hectic job that provides for their basic survival. People choose hectic jobs because they want to do better than basic survival.
This is such an insane take I don’t even know where to start. Even in the western world people increasingly need to work more than one job / have multiple incomes to live a life where basic necessities are given, and some luxuries are attainable (read: vacation, not rolex). That’s without children, in rich countries. That isn’t even touching on the problems someone e.g. from a lower caste in India might face. Asserting that „everyone with the intelligence to contribute to math“ would be able to just “find a job” that would them also contribute to the field is completely detached from reality.
People working multiple jobs in the western world have some reason beyond "basic survival". Supporting other people, living in a desirable location, or like the vast majority of people they want to make enough money to go beyond basic survival because basic survival is low status. Which is why the idea that all we have to do is give people enough money for a basic survival lifestyle and they'll be happy and spend the rest of their time on things with perceived aesthetic value like math research is the insane take.
You’re leaving out the niceties like living in a neighborhood where you don’t wake up and see if your child is still alive every time you hear gunshots in the night. Or working a job that doesn’t risk your limbs or even your life if you make a mistake. Or working for someone who will not just fire you the instant you stop being able to work due to an on-the-job injury.
Most of these aren’t even new inventions; read about the working conditions in the 19th century.
> My argument is that most people only veg out because they are tired of a hectic work life, but if given the chance to coast for a long time they would find productive work voluntarily and be more inclined to share their work
We have natural experiments of this: retirees, both early and otherwise. Do retirees during the first five years of their retirement "find productive work voluntarily" (your choice of words, not mine) in quantities that are comparable to what they did at work during the five years prior to their retirement? Not exceptional individuals, but on average.
I retired circa five years ago and spend my time doing stuff like walking the dog, drinking coffee and reading books, much like other retirees. My productivity is as close to zero as I can muster, and it is the rule, not the exception.
There's an obvious bias in focusing on retirees though. I mean, the whole notion of retirement exists for a reason.
But also, in all honesty, if we can feed and shelter everyone on the planet with only a small proportion of the population engaged in productive labor, what's the problem with most people walking the dog, drinking coffee, and reading books?
> There's an obvious bias in focusing on retirees though. I mean, the whole notion of retirement exists for a reason.
Go on, please. Whatever argument you make, please account for early retirees as well.
> if we can feed and shelter everyone on the planet with only a small proportion of the population engaged in productive labor
But that is not the premise of the discussion at hand, though. My comment was written in this specific context:
>>> My argument is that most people only veg out because they are tired of a hectic work life, but if given the chance to coast for a long time they would find productive work voluntarily
I think this mostly comes down to what work is productive for a person. People who are fascinated by research topics are likely to work on them and people who are enamoured with creating art will do so. But people who's productivity was largely being some cog in some machine will be all too happy to say good riddance.
I think everyone deserves the opportunity. Most will still veg out even if they had no minimum wage blue collar monotonous job. But everyone deserves a chance. Some people are born into it and have no chance. While I was lucky to have a supportive financially stable family through no work of my own yet I wasted it all scrolling my phone.
> I actually just think every person should have their basic survival provided for efficiently by society
Define basic survival. Tantalum mine worker in the Congo who earns 22 cents per hour and raises his three children on that money, is he under "basic survival" level or below?
And to be clear, as a part of a society, are you ready to forgo your salary, except maybe 1 dollar per hour, to provide to other people? Why haven’t you done it yet?
layer8 · · focus · HN ↗
This is the main issue, and while I fully agree with that value sentiment, the Fields medallists’ letter failed to provide convincing arguments for why mathematicians should widely receive funding for merely understanding things, and how competition for postdoc and tenure positions would work under these circumstances.
paimapi · · focus · HN ↗
imagine yourself living in the 1700s. how would you justify Newton and Leibniz's work on calculus?
all maritime engineering and trade was done with geometry and arithmetic at the time. there were no practical applications, not for likely at least a century until hydrodynamics were incorporated into shipbuilding
now look at today. how many of our modern technologies rely on the field having been birthed? that could only exist because of even further decades-worth of antecedent refinements, extrapolations, applications that had, at their time, no direct utilitarian cause?
there's no KPI to be derived from any academic field of study at the bleeding edge of theory. theoretical underpinnings lead to practical applications much further down the line after many paradigm shifts
semiotics and cultural capital as theoretical concepts is another example - at the time they were purely seen as navel-gazey literary theory work. these days, half a century later, they're in wide use (for better or worse) in marketing and advertising - they birthed the whole concept of 'branding'
not everything needs immediate, quantifiable justification. to believe it does indicates a need for a period of self-reflection, to figure out how and when you became so heavily influenced by the MBA-brained propaganda that the world should revolve around the quarter-by-quarter creation of capital
rdbl27 · · focus · HN ↗
Countless other mathematical curiosities were developed in the 1700s -- and forgotten. Calculus just happens to be the one that found practical applications later, so that's the one that's well known today.
It's difficult to draw the conclusion that "every possible branch of learning ought to be funded" by appealing to "later practical value" based on this cherrypicked example.
On the other hand, clearly _some_ novel theoretical work with no apparent immediate value _does_ yield real world benefit later.
Since we lack the resources to fund every PhD with a crazy theory on what the next new subfield ought to be, how do we decide?
Seems like AI could help massively there, by removing a huge bottleneck around technical elaboration and application seeking.
SequoiaHope · · focus · HN ↗
ralph84 · · focus · HN ↗
x3ro · · focus · HN ↗
[deleted] · · focus · HN ↗
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ralph84 · · focus · HN ↗
fn-mote · · focus · HN ↗
Most of these aren’t even new inventions; read about the working conditions in the 19th century.
david-gpu · · focus · HN ↗
We have natural experiments of this: retirees, both early and otherwise. Do retirees during the first five years of their retirement "find productive work voluntarily" (your choice of words, not mine) in quantities that are comparable to what they did at work during the five years prior to their retirement? Not exceptional individuals, but on average.
I retired circa five years ago and spend my time doing stuff like walking the dog, drinking coffee and reading books, much like other retirees. My productivity is as close to zero as I can muster, and it is the rule, not the exception.
int_19h · · focus · HN ↗
But also, in all honesty, if we can feed and shelter everyone on the planet with only a small proportion of the population engaged in productive labor, what's the problem with most people walking the dog, drinking coffee, and reading books?
david-gpu · · focus · HN ↗
Go on, please. Whatever argument you make, please account for early retirees as well.
> if we can feed and shelter everyone on the planet with only a small proportion of the population engaged in productive labor
But that is not the premise of the discussion at hand, though. My comment was written in this specific context:
>>> My argument is that most people only veg out because they are tired of a hectic work life, but if given the chance to coast for a long time they would find productive work voluntarily
Windchaser · · focus · HN ↗
I see this also among my early retiree friends. People are quite happy just "playing" - gardening, joining a book club, making art, etc.
And I would be, too! There are times I enjoy doing bigger work, but man, I could build quite a delightful life living like a hobbit.
[deleted] · · focus · HN ↗
[deleted]
TimPC · · focus · HN ↗
ceasesurthinko · · focus · HN ↗
MentalM · · focus · HN ↗
Define basic survival. Tantalum mine worker in the Congo who earns 22 cents per hour and raises his three children on that money, is he under "basic survival" level or below?
And to be clear, as a part of a society, are you ready to forgo your salary, except maybe 1 dollar per hour, to provide to other people? Why haven’t you done it yet?
fsflover · · focus · HN ↗
The amount of money that current local economy can provide to everybody sustainably, given the appropriate arrangements in the system.