This is really a microcosm of one particular problem that AI presents to the world: what do people do when their labour is not required any longer?
Here the worry is the social structures of mathematics are eroded such that fewer humans become able to do the work and less well, similarly to how juniors are being recruited less in software engineering, breaking the ladder and leading to fewer seniors in the years to come.
The answer to this really depends strongly on what AI can actually accomplish, but I’ll assume the maximal case and say that AI can do everything economically necessary, and further even those things just desired, such that human labour isn’t required for anything that anyone wants in a practical sense.
Here, we don’t need a human understanding of mathematics to give people a perfect standard of living. We also don’t need humans involved with anything else.
Everything therefore becomes a hobby or a game. People do things because they enjoy them for their own sake, or because they are endeavours used as vehicles to socialise and enjoy others’ company, or because a shared social belief exists and is cultivated such that doing such and such a thing confers social status.
And I think that’s more or less it. I predict we may see some fairly strange sorts of things, such as games where the team structure looks like the descendant of a company org and they compete in an artificial economy. Likewise we may see gamified versions of universities and academia. All of these would be “tamed” such that the rougher parts of the experiences were sanded off.
Sort of like how we evolved in an ancestral environment, and we have certain drives and expectations driven by that environment even though they no longer matter for survival. Our social structures may be derived similarly from those of today, even after they have ceased to serve a real purpose, but changed and repurposed to give meaning and community.
> Here, we don’t need a human understanding of mathematics to give people a perfect standard of living. We also don’t need humans involved with anything else.
> Everything therefore becomes a hobby or a game. People do things because they enjoy them for their own sake, or because they are endeavours used as vehicles to socialise and enjoy others’ company, or because a shared social belief exists and is cultivated such that doing such and such a thing confers social status.
That's true only if you manage to implement communism.
If the economy remains capitalist, it means you'll suffer. There's no pleasant future of self-driven hobbies when you've got nothing to offer the capitalists, so they have no reason to give you any money. You'll have to work hard to scrape by on scraps and meager handouts to merely survive.
And in an odd way, I wouldn't be surprised if society becomes essentially communist for the nepo babies of the wealthy; after a long, slow holocaust of the now-unnecessary working classes, the only people left will be people so rich money doesn't matter. Under capitalism, the only people who are permitted comfort without work are the wealthy.
I'm surprised there's no actual commie coming out and claiming the end of capitalism is near. (except maybe me in my personal socials, only larping as a hobby)
I'm toying with the idea that until people realize capitalism is based on an increasingly invalid assumption that "things are scarce", the capitalist-ish economical system will eventually realize that the only scarce things are new, fun and creative ideas, and slowly value them more and more, which kind of might work out if nothing drastic happens between the times of transition.
> ...the capitalist-ish economical system will eventually realize that the only scarce things are new, fun and creative ideas, and slowly value them more and more, which kind of might work out if nothing drastic happens between the times of transition.
The problem (for most of us) is "new, fun and creative ideas" are pretty rare. If a worker has to be a font of them to eat in the new world, not many workers will be eating.
And by surprised you probably mean "not really surprised" hm?
Just in case btw.: the world tends to get poorer in material ressources since around the 70s e.g. regarding habitable space, harvestable energy and the destruction of the integrity of earths biosphere - lots of things that establish value that is not bound to labour.
Knowledgework isn't everything, some tend to forget that.
> I'm surprised there's no actual commie coming out and claiming the end of capitalism is near. (except maybe me in my personal socials, only larping as a hobby)
I'm a (libertarian, free-market) socialist, so not quite communist, but I think the differences are not substantial as far as everyone outside far left circles is concerned. And I've been saying this exact thing since this whole AI wave started.
If there was ever a time to seize the means of production and make them commons, this is it.
> I'm surprised there's no actual commie coming out and claiming the end of capitalism is near.
Aren't they doing that like literally from the very beginning? I clearly remember Lenin said that capitalism will end in a couple of decades because of electricity.
Chance-Device · · focus · HN ↗
Here the worry is the social structures of mathematics are eroded such that fewer humans become able to do the work and less well, similarly to how juniors are being recruited less in software engineering, breaking the ladder and leading to fewer seniors in the years to come.
The answer to this really depends strongly on what AI can actually accomplish, but I’ll assume the maximal case and say that AI can do everything economically necessary, and further even those things just desired, such that human labour isn’t required for anything that anyone wants in a practical sense.
Here, we don’t need a human understanding of mathematics to give people a perfect standard of living. We also don’t need humans involved with anything else.
Everything therefore becomes a hobby or a game. People do things because they enjoy them for their own sake, or because they are endeavours used as vehicles to socialise and enjoy others’ company, or because a shared social belief exists and is cultivated such that doing such and such a thing confers social status.
And I think that’s more or less it. I predict we may see some fairly strange sorts of things, such as games where the team structure looks like the descendant of a company org and they compete in an artificial economy. Likewise we may see gamified versions of universities and academia. All of these would be “tamed” such that the rougher parts of the experiences were sanded off.
Sort of like how we evolved in an ancestral environment, and we have certain drives and expectations driven by that environment even though they no longer matter for survival. Our social structures may be derived similarly from those of today, even after they have ceased to serve a real purpose, but changed and repurposed to give meaning and community.
palmotea · · focus · HN ↗
> Everything therefore becomes a hobby or a game. People do things because they enjoy them for their own sake, or because they are endeavours used as vehicles to socialise and enjoy others’ company, or because a shared social belief exists and is cultivated such that doing such and such a thing confers social status.
That's true only if you manage to implement communism.
If the economy remains capitalist, it means you'll suffer. There's no pleasant future of self-driven hobbies when you've got nothing to offer the capitalists, so they have no reason to give you any money. You'll have to work hard to scrape by on scraps and meager handouts to merely survive.
And in an odd way, I wouldn't be surprised if society becomes essentially communist for the nepo babies of the wealthy; after a long, slow holocaust of the now-unnecessary working classes, the only people left will be people so rich money doesn't matter. Under capitalism, the only people who are permitted comfort without work are the wealthy.
hnfong · · focus · HN ↗
I'm surprised there's no actual commie coming out and claiming the end of capitalism is near. (except maybe me in my personal socials, only larping as a hobby)
I'm toying with the idea that until people realize capitalism is based on an increasingly invalid assumption that "things are scarce", the capitalist-ish economical system will eventually realize that the only scarce things are new, fun and creative ideas, and slowly value them more and more, which kind of might work out if nothing drastic happens between the times of transition.
palmotea · · focus · HN ↗
The problem (for most of us) is "new, fun and creative ideas" are pretty rare. If a worker has to be a font of them to eat in the new world, not many workers will be eating.
So, no, that won't "work out."
NonHyloMorph · · focus · HN ↗
Just in case btw.: the world tends to get poorer in material ressources since around the 70s e.g. regarding habitable space, harvestable energy and the destruction of the integrity of earths biosphere - lots of things that establish value that is not bound to labour. Knowledgework isn't everything, some tend to forget that.
int_19h · · focus · HN ↗
I'm a (libertarian, free-market) socialist, so not quite communist, but I think the differences are not substantial as far as everyone outside far left circles is concerned. And I've been saying this exact thing since this whole AI wave started.
If there was ever a time to seize the means of production and make them commons, this is it.
MentalM · · focus · HN ↗
Aren't they doing that like literally from the very beginning? I clearly remember Lenin said that capitalism will end in a couple of decades because of electricity.