Thread

1. georgemcbay · 1789884732 · focus · HN ↗

   Blows my mind that so many people just have this hardened internalized idea that we're somehow significantly different than any other animal.

   Sure, we've got them beat on language and planning, but we're currently in the process of being passed up on both those fronts by multi-dimensional arrays of floating point numbers sitting inside of sand. So, like, how special is that then, really?

   1. ajuc · 1789922676 · focus · HN ↗

      I've heard scientists say dogs don't have theory of mind and making a big deal out of some animals that do have some traces of it, when any dog owner can confirm they do. I've seen my dog bury a bone in one place while the other dog watches, then rebury it in a different place when the other dog went home.

      I've also seen my parents' previous dog pretend he's closed in the enclosure with the doghouse when neighbors cat approached even when he wasn't. Then when the cat came to their backyard the dog would run after the cat.

      It's so obvious, it's baffling to me how science could ever miss it.

      1. s1artibartfast · 1790017778 · focus · HN ↗

         Can you have theory of behavior without theory of mind? I think so, almost by definition.

         A dog knows that the cat will run when the dog charges. Is that theory of mind?

         1. ajuc · 1790080547 · focus · HN ↗

            A dog knows that the cat won't enter the backyard if he thinks the dog is free to roam, but will enter the backyard if it thinks the dog is restricted to the enclosure.

            I call that theory of mind, because the dog needs to distinguish what it knows and what the cat knows.

            1. s1artibartfast · 1790103147 · focus · HN ↗

               Thats true for any stalking animal, right? They know they see the prey but are not seen, and if seen, they know the prey will flee.

               1. ajuc · 1790157263 · focus · HN ↗

                  You can have stalking behaviour based on simple ingrained unconscious if-then rules (don't be seen basically).

                  Showing yourself on purpose to change what you think the other animal thinks your capabilities are is more complicated and harder to evolve as a hardcoded reflex IMO.

                  Dogs weren't evolving in backyards with periodically opening see-through enclosures.

                  But yes, I'd assume most stealth predators with sophisticated brains (for example mammals) have some kind of theory of mind. It's just too useful not to have it. Same goes for animals living in complex social groups.

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