From personal experience, frontier models absolutely struggle with understanding a physical situation based on words. (Okay, I haven't played with Astra much. GPT-5.6 Sol makes outrageous errors that anyone understanding a real world object would not make. And I was just asking it about NPT threads, not advanced physics.)
But seriously, what's up with these benchmarks? The example question in the paper is:
> PHYBench, problem 140: equivalent expressions for the same rope tension
> Problem statement. Three identical homogeneous balls are placed on a smooth horizontal surface, touching each other and are close enough to each other. A rope is wrapped around the spheres at the height of their centers, tying them together. A fourth identical sphere is placed on top of the three spheres. Find the tension T in the rope. It is given that the weight of each sphere is P.
For some reason the paper was focused on the fact that the grader didn't notice that some models were producing answers that were trivially algebraically equivalent to the reference answer. But this is missing the elephants in the room:
1. "touching each other and are close enough to each other": the right response is "hey, Professor, what do you mean 'close enough to each other'? They're sitting on a table in an equilateral triangle, all touching (i.e. tangent at their equators), right? Did you have a different configuration in mind?"
2. The answer is 0. Go find four baseballs or foursquare balls or whatever, make a little triangle with three of them, and balance the fourth one on top. It's not especially hard on an appropriate surface. Now loosely wrap an imaginary rope around them (but see below) to keep them from moving - no tension is needed because they're not moving anyway. So the models and the reference answer are wrong, IMO.
3. How, exactly, do you plan to wrap a rope around the spheres, at equator height, with no built-in tension (not pre-stretched), such that the rope does not immediately fall off? Friction? But I suspect you need to pretend there is no friction to get the reference answer. (Or maybe that the marble-marble interface has friction but the marble-table interface doesn't? Again, I haven't tried to reverse engineer it.) So maybe the right answer is "infinity or impossible -- in the scenario where the rope is needed, the rope will promptly fall off because it cannot be stable in the described configuration and gravity pulls it down, and once the rope falls off the tension will be zero and the top marble will fall and the other three will roll over the rope."
4. The answer might be "any tension you like -- just wrap the rope with the desired amount of tension". Imagine three baseballs in a triangle with a rubber band around them and a fourth baseball on top for good measure. The tension is a function of what rubber band you choose.
I'm sure there's an interpretation of the question that makes the reference answer correct, and I was not inspired to try to reverse engineer it.
My tentative conclusion is that LLMs are almost unbelievably good at solving problems that are fully contained within the inputs and (training/verification) outputs, and that they and the people training them are not actually particularly good at the input and output parts. If you are training a model to benchmaxx this benchmark, you are training a bad model.
This tracks with my experience. A core and integral part to make models actually shine involves post training and custom harness engineering, all specifically done for the purpose of getting them to settle into competent inputs and outputs that are relevant to you, optimized for the harness you build which better suits your domain. The weights are just a generalization. A block of marble to be sculpted.
As the compute to build adaptions for multi-billion to trillion parameter models becomes more and more available (and affordable), and the artistic techniques of fine tuning and harness engineering spread throughout the public, I think we'll come to see the "one size fits all" model for the non-starter it really is. Anybody who's even toyed around with LoRAs (let alone made their own) already knows this. That's a very deep rabbit hole, and the ceiling is determined by target domain knowledge and systems engineering.
I'm bullish on LLMs as expert tools in the same grain that computers are. You have to learn all about them to use them effectively. But what really makes the difference is how well you know what you're going to be pointing them at. There is very little room for companies like OpenAI or Google to live between us and our tools.
No, that would be a fundamental misunderstanding of the bitter lesson, which is about research bets over time. The object of comparison is the technology, the underlying substrate and fundamental architecture, and how much of it can be offloaded to computation. We're talking about the same architecture here, they're both transformers. The difference doesn't exist in a relevant way to the question.
amluto · · focus · HN ↗
From personal experience, frontier models absolutely struggle with understanding a physical situation based on words. (Okay, I haven't played with Astra much. GPT-5.6 Sol makes outrageous errors that anyone understanding a real world object would not make. And I was just asking it about NPT threads, not advanced physics.)
But seriously, what's up with these benchmarks? The example question in the paper is:
> PHYBench, problem 140: equivalent expressions for the same rope tension
> Problem statement. Three identical homogeneous balls are placed on a smooth horizontal surface, touching each other and are close enough to each other. A rope is wrapped around the spheres at the height of their centers, tying them together. A fourth identical sphere is placed on top of the three spheres. Find the tension T in the rope. It is given that the weight of each sphere is P.
For some reason the paper was focused on the fact that the grader didn't notice that some models were producing answers that were trivially algebraically equivalent to the reference answer. But this is missing the elephants in the room:
1. "touching each other and are close enough to each other": the right response is "hey, Professor, what do you mean 'close enough to each other'? They're sitting on a table in an equilateral triangle, all touching (i.e. tangent at their equators), right? Did you have a different configuration in mind?"
2. The answer is 0. Go find four baseballs or foursquare balls or whatever, make a little triangle with three of them, and balance the fourth one on top. It's not especially hard on an appropriate surface. Now loosely wrap an imaginary rope around them (but see below) to keep them from moving - no tension is needed because they're not moving anyway. So the models and the reference answer are wrong, IMO.
3. How, exactly, do you plan to wrap a rope around the spheres, at equator height, with no built-in tension (not pre-stretched), such that the rope does not immediately fall off? Friction? But I suspect you need to pretend there is no friction to get the reference answer. (Or maybe that the marble-marble interface has friction but the marble-table interface doesn't? Again, I haven't tried to reverse engineer it.) So maybe the right answer is "infinity or impossible -- in the scenario where the rope is needed, the rope will promptly fall off because it cannot be stable in the described configuration and gravity pulls it down, and once the rope falls off the tension will be zero and the top marble will fall and the other three will roll over the rope."
4. The answer might be "any tension you like -- just wrap the rope with the desired amount of tension". Imagine three baseballs in a triangle with a rubber band around them and a fourth baseball on top for good measure. The tension is a function of what rubber band you choose.
I'm sure there's an interpretation of the question that makes the reference answer correct, and I was not inspired to try to reverse engineer it.
My tentative conclusion is that LLMs are almost unbelievably good at solving problems that are fully contained within the inputs and (training/verification) outputs, and that they and the people training them are not actually particularly good at the input and output parts. If you are training a model to benchmaxx this benchmark, you are training a bad model.
ux266478 · · focus · HN ↗
As the compute to build adaptions for multi-billion to trillion parameter models becomes more and more available (and affordable), and the artistic techniques of fine tuning and harness engineering spread throughout the public, I think we'll come to see the "one size fits all" model for the non-starter it really is. Anybody who's even toyed around with LoRAs (let alone made their own) already knows this. That's a very deep rabbit hole, and the ceiling is determined by target domain knowledge and systems engineering.
I'm bullish on LLMs as expert tools in the same grain that computers are. You have to learn all about them to use them effectively. But what really makes the difference is how well you know what you're going to be pointing them at. There is very little room for companies like OpenAI or Google to live between us and our tools.
semiquaver · · focus · HN ↗
ux266478 · · focus · HN ↗