Thread

1. gizajob · 1789549234 · focus · HN ↗

   Would it not make sense to perhaps invite the UK to be an associate member first? We’re right on the doorstep.

   1. Tomte · 1789549488 · focus · HN ↗

      You don‘t want to have any level of association with us, as you‘ve made clear repeatedly over many years, involving many insults.

      Don‘t expect the EU to actively offer anything again. Do the first step (after getting a clear view what proportion of your population actually wants that).

      The United Kingdom would be a great member, as you had been. But that ship has politically sailed.

      1. gizajob · 1789549916 · focus · HN ↗

         [dead]

         1. hardbass · 1789550155 · focus · HN ↗

            You seem extremely confused. Why do you want your ex partner to treat you nicely when you yourself stated you hate them? Do you want to force a relationship again despite the other party not wanting you or even you yourself wanting it? You seem completely incoherent and absurd. Make up your mind whether you want to join a voluntary membership organization or not.

            1. gizajob · 1789550636 · focus · HN ↗

               The main confusion here is your use of unsuitable metaphor - people choosing that a political bloc is not behaving in a way that they believe represents their interests is in no way analogous to an abusive partner beating his/her significant other, and it is pretty addled to even make that comparison. Yet paradoxically sensible, because it demonstrates why the political process stalled as that framing really is what is in the minds of the EU bureaucrats towards the UK now. You’re also overlooking that 49% of the voters in the UK voted to stay in the EU.

               1. hardbass · 1789551492 · focus · HN ↗

                  Your country chose to divorce of its own will, the EU didn't kick you out. It is not a forcible organization like being a citizen in a country, its completely voluntary. So why the hell are you whining about the EU ignoring you when you yourself divorced from it. Nobody is stopping you from insulting or hating anyone you want. What is absurd to then also want to force them to interact with you and then this absurd heisen stuff of leaving them and then complaining they don't want you in when there is nothing stopping you from making the request to be let in. You should make up your mind, why should the EU have to give you an invite when you were the one who left it and now you want to join/not-join. I think if the EU sent a request and the mood in your populace was anti eu then it would worsen not improve relations for example. The homework is on the UK to measure if it's population wants to join the EU or not before making any requests. If you want to join, say it clearly and put a vote in the UK, or if you don't want to join then make it clear, otherwise it doesn't make sense t be complaining about the EU not wishing to entertain your unstated requests.

                  1. user43928 · 1789552859 · focus · HN ↗

                     I find your tone inappropriate for this website.

                     I suggest you don't participate if you cannot discuss calmly the opinion that the EU should be more inviting towards the UK, even if you consider the opinion absurd.

                     1. hardbass · 1789553256 · focus · HN ↗

                        How can EU be the one expected to be inviting when they didn't kick the UK out in the first place? The UK is the one that left on its own. The EU doesn't have to do anything, I think they are quite open to the UK or anyone else in the continent joining. I just find it absurd a British person is complaining without the UK first doing the homework and showing joining EU is something tenable from their side via an internal vote about joining.

                        If you want a disclaimer, I am neither european nor british if that matters. From outside the situation seems very clear to me.

                        1. gizajob · 1789555568 · focus · HN ↗

                           I could go into exhaustive details, but the EU made absolutely no case to the British people why they should be part of the EU, and that case is still unmade. Brexit was an EU political issue happening inside the EU yet it and the British people were treated with ignorance and condescension, like it was a wholly British minor political issue and the very thought of leaving was laughable (openly laughable because Nigel Farage got laughed at in the EU parliament when he put it to them that he was going to make Britain leave, which he succeeded in doing). That case for the benefits of joining has still never been made, rather assumed as self-evident. There has been no publicity at all towards the British people that they could rejoin and it would be beneficial, which is the step the EU would reasonably take yet refuses to do. Hence the British people similarly have no interest in begging to be part of this organisation, the mechanics and political organisation of which is very poorly understood.

                           1. ginko · 1789555929 · focus · HN ↗

                              The EU didn't participate in the Brexit campaign because that would have rightfully been seen as undue meddling in internal politics of the UK.

                              In any case I don't understand what you want us to do? Should the EU grovel before the UK and beg it to return? That won't happen. You guys voted to leave. You can come back if you want but don't expect any red carpets.

                              It's telling that ten years on it's mainly you Brits still kvetching about this.

                              1. hardbass · 1789556111 · focus · HN ↗

                                 I really don't understand this heisenberg nonsense at all. If he wants to join he should say (and prove) that, if he doesn't want to join then directly say that.
                              2. gizajob · 1789558650 · focus · HN ↗

                                 My main point in this thread was about Ursula proposing that the EU is democratic while she benefits from it not being democratic. I’m more just stirring the pot rather than kvetching. The more distance we get from Brexit it becomes easier to see the defects inherent within the EU project.
                           2. hardbass · 1789556042 · focus · HN ↗

                              Whats wrong in laughing at farage? You left, if you eant to rejoin then you have to make the case and prove you are ready for it. The EU can't read your brain, why should it invite when you left. It should not even invite unlesss you did a poll and proved you want to join.

                              1. gizajob · 1789558520 · focus · HN ↗

                                 I agree that he’s a laughable character but they were laughing at the very idea he might do what he was saying he was going to do, rather than taking him seriously. If they’d have taken it seriously, the UK might still be part of the EU. Shows how open and liberal their thinking is to any ideas that don’t fit their paradigm.

                                 1. hardbass · 1789559515 · focus · HN ↗

                                    The far right wing stupidity needs to run its course. There's nothing outside forces could have done to prevent it, attempts by EU to steer the Brexit issue would only have led to accusations of "EU interference" and casued a stronger Brexit. A few millions dead and total destruction of QoL would generally be the usual for far right wing to run its course like in the last world wars. Immunity only develops after a dose of the disease. I am not saying I like this, it's just how it is.

                                    1. gizajob · 1789585395 · focus · HN ↗

                                       It is taking its course, which is why parties such as AfD are winning elections in Germany.

                                       1. hardbass · 1789587198 · focus · HN ↗

                                          These parties dislike the EU anyways. So what would be the point in trying to woo them to a cause they don't believe in? Some lessons are best learned from europeans again returning to killing each other en masse. Unfortunately.
               2. hardbass · 1789551864 · focus · HN ↗

                  Elsewhere you are saying you disagree with the way the EU is structured, which makes it even more absurd why you want to join it. Don't like it, leave it. Like it, put a vote to join. Like some aspects, dislike others, then state specifics and come to a discussion.

                  1. gizajob · 1789552911 · focus · HN ↗

                     Some of the benefits of being in the EU are very nice but the way it is now structured politically and financially and even ideologically mean that it is not an entity which any sensible country with anything to lose could willingly join. And the main thing lost is the right to have any impact on its decision making process. Hence why Switzerland, Norway and more recently Iceland aren’t members, and it lost the UK.

                     1. hardbass · 1789553167 · focus · HN ↗

                        Then why are you complaining they didn't invite your country?
         2. pibaker · 1789558474 · focus · HN ↗

            If you have a kid who ask you for a toy and you give him, and then he throws a tantrum and smashes the toy on the floor, you don't just pretend nothing happened and buy him the same toy again.

            Why? Because what you are teaching him is he can throw as many tantrums he wants and face no consequences. It gets worse if you have other kids — if he can throw a tantrum and get away with it, why not me too?

            He can have that toy again, but not before he learns the lesson and knows his place.

            Not communism, just cold hard game theory. Sorry your feelings got hurt.

            1. gizajob · 1789558911 · focus · HN ↗

               You’re projecting about my feelings. It seems a strange paradox that associate membership is on the table for Canada when it was a hard no to any idea like that where it came to the UK. As hard as the Brexit was, the EU refused to budge and the UK offered to be either in or out. Now Canada is offered to be half in.

               1. hardbass · 1789559975 · focus · HN ↗

                  Canada starts neutral. UK starts anti. Very easy.
               2. optionalsquid · 1789560660 · focus · HN ↗

                  Putting aside whether or not being an "associate member" counts as being "half in" the EU, of which there were already examples during Brexit, it should not be forgotten that the UK did not want to be "half in" the EU. The people who wanted to remain in the EU probably did want to stay "half in", but they did not set the agenda, so what the UK got was a hard exit
         3. Mashimo · 1789561131 · focus · HN ↗

            What is communist about it?

            1. gizajob · 1789561693 · focus · HN ↗

               [dead]

               1. Mashimo · 1789564072 · focus · HN ↗

                  I don't get it.

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